How to ID true Koetsu Black made by Mr. Sugano, the father?
- Thread starter Ki Choi
- Start date
My own newly found early 1980s Black. In storage with the turntable it was originally purchased with for probably the last 25-30yrs. It tracks perfectly and cleanly and the sound is incredible. My first experience with a Koetsu or any low output moving coil.
Untitled by Rick S., on Flickr
Untitled by Rick S., on Flickr
Untitled by Rick S., on Flickr
Untitled by Rick S., on FlickrUntitled by Rick S., on FlickrUntitled by Rick S., on Flickr
Some photos of yet another iteration of the Black. I bought this one new in the early nineties, it seems to be between the earlier Musashino 80's version and the later Goldline. Still has the black underside of the 80's version, but with the bevelled edges of the later Goldline.
Also noted, the serial number is quite different (lower) than ones already shown here, suggesting definitely a different series to the Musashino labelled carts.
Curiously, the box has a label on it from the Distributor (Friden Trading) stating "Black Mk III".
Also noted, the serial number is quite different (lower) than ones already shown here, suggesting definitely a different series to the Musashino labelled carts.
Curiously, the box has a label on it from the Distributor (Friden Trading) stating "Black Mk III".
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Mine seems to be identical to yours new2krell, besides the serial number obviously. Mine has #12321 and Japan written on it.
I bought this for 50 bucks a few years ago, without the diamond tip. It came back to me last winter, from anamightysound, being fully overhauled and plays really good in my FR64s arm. The previous owner told me it was bought in the eighties and had been stored in a drawer for many many years.
I bought this for 50 bucks a few years ago, without the diamond tip. It came back to me last winter, from anamightysound, being fully overhauled and plays really good in my FR64s arm. The previous owner told me it was bought in the eighties and had been stored in a drawer for many many years.
It does indeed. The same series for sure, I'd say. It would be nice to understand the sequencing and the differences.
If this particular version is a MkIII, there was presumably another version between this and the Musashino labelled carts pictured in the thread (unless there were two versions of the Musashino). Does that also make the Goldline (with the gold bottom plate) a MKIV, I wonder? I am sure someone somewhere knows.
No matter what, great cartridges in my opinion. I thoroughly enjoy mine. Vocals are really something else.
I hope this helps!
Had a bit of spare time this am, went searching and found some interesting info on Blacks. I can't verify the accuracy, but it does at least seem to tie in with photos and details here quite well. I will leave it up to individuals to decide validity:
It appears there were two versions of the all black Musashino cart.
1980 Koetsu Black (all black, screw on front face). 9.9g (or 9.5). Musashino on top. s/n 50xxx.
1982 Koetsu Black mk 2 (all black). Musashino. s/n 527xx. 11.2g.
1985 Koetsu Black Goldline 12.1g. Black with gold trim sn 1xxxxx.
Koetsu Black Goldline mk 2 Gold bottom and gold trim. 10.8g
Crosswind and my carts are, as thought, a different series and would appear to be the first "Goldline". Not mentioned here to be MKIII though, as per the distributors label on my Black's box.
Assuming these first Goldlines to be MKIII's, I think it's reasonable to also call the gold bottomed Goldline a Black MKIV (or Goldline MKII). Due to weights quoted, there clearly seems to be a difference between these two.
Jadis and RickS, it appears you have a MKII
DaveP and msm-1, it appears you have MKIs (can't see if there is a screw on the front face from pics - would increase validation of info if there).
Info found on vinylengine, for the record. There are also some photos of the MKI and MkII external and internals (clearly a difference inside - didn't want to post the pics here in case of infringement).
A comment also suggests the internals of the MKII are very similar to the MKIII, but no pics of the III to compare - and no, just in case you are thinking, I am not going to undo mine and take one!
Had a bit of spare time this am, went searching and found some interesting info on Blacks. I can't verify the accuracy, but it does at least seem to tie in with photos and details here quite well. I will leave it up to individuals to decide validity:
It appears there were two versions of the all black Musashino cart.
1980 Koetsu Black (all black, screw on front face). 9.9g (or 9.5). Musashino on top. s/n 50xxx.
1982 Koetsu Black mk 2 (all black). Musashino. s/n 527xx. 11.2g.
1985 Koetsu Black Goldline 12.1g. Black with gold trim sn 1xxxxx.
Koetsu Black Goldline mk 2 Gold bottom and gold trim. 10.8g
Crosswind and my carts are, as thought, a different series and would appear to be the first "Goldline". Not mentioned here to be MKIII though, as per the distributors label on my Black's box.
Assuming these first Goldlines to be MKIII's, I think it's reasonable to also call the gold bottomed Goldline a Black MKIV (or Goldline MKII). Due to weights quoted, there clearly seems to be a difference between these two.
Jadis and RickS, it appears you have a MKII
DaveP and msm-1, it appears you have MKIs (can't see if there is a screw on the front face from pics - would increase validation of info if there).
Info found on vinylengine, for the record. There are also some photos of the MKI and MkII external and internals (clearly a difference inside - didn't want to post the pics here in case of infringement).
A comment also suggests the internals of the MKII are very similar to the MKIII, but no pics of the III to compare - and no, just in case you are thinking, I am not going to undo mine and take one!
Great info! Thanks for letting us know, new2Krell.I hope this helps!
Had a bit of spare time this am, went searching and found some interesting info on Blacks. I can't verify the accuracy, but it does at least seem to tie in with photos and details here quite well. I will leave it up to individuals to decide validity:
It appears there were two versions of the all black Musashino cart.
1980 Koetsu Black (all black, screw on front face). 9.9g (or 9.5). Musashino on top. s/n 50xxx.
1982 Koetsu Black mk 2 (all black). Musashino. s/n 527xx. 11.2g.
1985 Koetsu Black Goldline 12.1g. Black with gold trim sn 1xxxxx.
Koetsu Black Goldline mk 2 Gold bottom and gold trim. 10.8g
Crosswind and my carts are, as thought, a different series and would appear to be the first "Goldline". Not mentioned here to be MKIII though, as per the distributors label on my Black's box.
Assuming these first Goldlines to be MKIII's, I think it's reasonable to also call the gold bottomed Goldline a Black MKIV (or Goldline MKII). Due to weights quoted, there clearly seems to be a difference between these two.
Jadis and RickS, it appears you have a MKII
DaveP and msm-1, it appears you have MKIs (can't see if there is a screw on the front face from pics - would increase validation of info if there).
Info found on vinylengine, for the record. There are also some photos of the MKI and MkII external and internals (clearly a difference inside - didn't want to post the pics here in case of infringement).
A comment also suggests the internals of the MKII are very similar to the MKIII, but no pics of the III to compare - and no, just in case you are thinking, I am not going to undo mine and take one!
Interesting too, to know the MkII weighs a bit more at 11.2g, That is very near the weight of the platinum models. Would you know what magnet these Blacks used? I heard it may be alnico.
Finding an old Koetsu Black is hard and finding one in good condition is almost impossible IMHO. Cartridge suspensions are more or less like car tires, they deteriorate over time. When it’s replaced whole sound signature of cartridge changes. Suspension is probably the most significant element that gives a cartridge it’s distinctive sound signature. IMHO old Koetsu Black cartridges from 80’s need a suspension replacement and some need a complete rebuild including coils, cantilever and stylus. I think all materials that are used by Koetsu now is different than 80’s. It looks like a remote possibility to resurrect a Koetsu Black from 80’s with it’s original sound even it’s rebuild by Koetsu. It can be better or worse but I don’t think it will be the same as original. Not to mention the differences if it’s rebuild in somewhere else.
Sorry, no info on actual materials used. I guess there has to remain some mystery to the Koetsu magic
The only other comment I could make on what I found is perahps the suggestion that after Musashino, production MAY have moved to Dynavector, not least because Koetsus were then marketed through Dynavector dealers, apparently, after 1985. This is not my suggestion, just repeating what I read.
It would certainly follow in my case, if true. When I bought my Black in the early 90's it was direct from the Dynavector distributor who was also the Koetsu distributor at the time.
There is a lot of logic in your comments. I have known mine since new and it has had fair, but not excessive, use during this time. I still enjoy it immensly, but I am very much aware it will not last forever and am starting to consider what I am going to do when it is no longer so enjoyable.
The cost of a new Black (or rebuild) has become quite an investment, but what alternatives are there? I don't know yet, but it may well be if I want to continue to enjoy what I have become accustomed to as the "Koetsu sound", I will simply need to pay the money and replace it with another one.
Almost certainly a Koetsu rebuild of the MKI will sound different, I think, not least because of the differences internally. The MKII perhaps slightly less so, and the MKIII maybe even less so as they appear to be more similar and possibly closer to the curent version, but I don't know for sure. If I should ever get mine rebuilt, or replaced with new, I will let you know what I find.
Almost 3 years after finding my Koetsu Black, it stubbornly keeps playing as good as the day I installed it. It now has great sentimental value especially since it came from a good friend of mine. So I would lean heavily towards a Koetsu rebuild, however they would chose to do it rather than trade up.
What I have decided is to snag either a new Rosewood or Rosewood Signature or the latest Black Goldline before I send this one off. Gots to keep that first Koetsu like I’m keeping my first and probably only Rolex lol.
What I have decided is to snag either a new Rosewood or Rosewood Signature or the latest Black Goldline before I send this one off. Gots to keep that first Koetsu like I’m keeping my first and probably only Rolex lol.
Will Koetsu rebuild a black that was purchased used overseas for an American customer? There is at least one Far East dealer that seems to have a raft of old Koetsus that need work- missing cantilevers, etc. I don't know if it makes financial sense to revive one of these old ones-
I have two modern Koetsu stones that came from the authorized US distributor, and given the price of these cartridges today, having the factory rebuild them seems like a prudent outlay, compared to the cost of a new cartridge in the same league. But I had the impression the factory would not work on gray market cartridges.
On history gathering, Although Ana Mighty has been around for only 13 or so years, they might be able to put together a timeline for these things based on rebuilding/retipping them.
I have two modern Koetsu stones that came from the authorized US distributor, and given the price of these cartridges today, having the factory rebuild them seems like a prudent outlay, compared to the cost of a new cartridge in the same league. But I had the impression the factory would not work on gray market cartridges.
On history gathering, Although Ana Mighty has been around for only 13 or so years, they might be able to put together a timeline for these things based on rebuilding/retipping them.
I believe Koetsu will first check the serial number of any unit that comes its way for rebuilding, and they should service it. The cost of rebuild though for a Black or Rosewood would not be economically pleasing, as you can find a good priced brand new one from a reliable source.
I feel that way about mine too. Funny how we become so attached to some items!
An old post, saw it a few weeks ago, but had to find my Black before i wanted to respond. Fantastic info. I bought a Koetsu Black around 1981, and it has a screw on the front, S/N 519xx
Also, the box does not have any Japanese characters on it, but when i got it, the box was wrapped inside a Japanese newspaper.
I used the Koetsu Black on a Linn Sondek LP12 with Syrinx PU2 Gold arm. all bought new as one system (replacing the Micro Seiki DQX 500 with Dynavector DV20A). After a few years, assuming the Black would be worn, i bought a Audio Technica AT-OC9. Although it sounded "clearer", it was also more "hifi" and the magic was gone.
Around 2000, i bought a Goldmund Studio; and because Clearaudio had good experience with the Goldmund (hence the birth of the Clearaudio Goldmund), i bought the Accurate.
Now, 43 years later, i still have the Black in the box
My Black is also on a Linn LP12 too, but in an Ittok LVII. I also bought and tried an OC9 and totally agree with your comparison. I have yet to find anything I prefer over the black, to be honest. I am not actually looking anymore, it still amazes me and I am very happy with mine.An old post, saw it a few weeks ago, but had to find my Black before i wanted to respond. Fantastic info. I bought a Koetsu Black around 1981, and it has a screw on the front, S/N 519xx
Also, the box does not have any Japanese characters on it, but when i got it, the box was wrapped inside a Japanese newspaper.
I used the Koetsu Black on a Linn Sondek LP12 with Syrinx PU2 Gold arm. all bought new as one system (replacing the Micro Seiki DQX 500 with Dynavector DV20A). After a few years, assuming the Black would be worn, i bought a Audio Technica AT-OC9. Although it sounded "clearer", it was also more "hifi" and the magic was gone.
Around 2000, i bought a Goldmund Studio; and because Clearaudio had good experience with the Goldmund (hence the birth of the Clearaudio Goldmund), i bought the Accurate.
Now, 43 years later, i still have the Black in the box
What is yours doing in the box?
As said i was charmed by the Clearaudio, it just sounds more real compared to the Black. By this i mean i sounds less colored, less romantic, way tighter and more controlled bass/lows, realistic dynamics. But this may be partly because of the fact it works well in the T3-B arm, and my taste.
Voices are very very good with the Koetsu.
As why it is still in the box: i have difficulties parting with stuff i love or loved. Otoh, this beauty deserves better.
It took me months to get the arm where it sounded perfect (VTA, overhang, weight), so swapping cartridges is something i don't like to do often. If i ever buy another cartridge, it will probably be another Clearaudio.
Voices are very very good with the Koetsu.
As why it is still in the box: i have difficulties parting with stuff i love or loved. Otoh, this beauty deserves better.
It took me months to get the arm where it sounded perfect (VTA, overhang, weight), so swapping cartridges is something i don't like to do often. If i ever buy another cartridge, it will probably be another Clearaudio.
You have touched on a very important issue, "set up". It is one thing getting any cartridge right in an arm and on the turntable, but it doesn't stop there. Each system is going to be different, SUT's, preamps, power amps and speakers. In my case I use valve amplification, changing tubes even tube combinations, finding the right bias setting for power tubes all add to the complication, or should I say enjoyment? Perseverance certainly has it's rewards. I recently needed a shorter interconnect between SUT and preamp and took the opportunity to do a little more. I renewed the tubes in the power amps, gain matched preamp tubes, put some M8137's in the phono section and tweaked the Black / Ittok settings. After several hours, over a few days, I arrived at the (a) happy place. With the right source material, the Black demonstrated yet again what an amazing cartridge it is, especially with voices. I find it extremely "believable". Close your eyes and you have no idea where you are. Using M8137's in the phono section made a difference, greater dynamics. The standard Mullard ECC83's are very musical and have a little more "romance" in comparison, to my ears and would also match your description of being "less coloured, less romantic, way tighter, more controlled bass / lows". I am not saying the Black is the perfect cartridge, I am sure no such thing exists, but it is extremely capable. It does so many things right for me and I am extremely pleased to own one. The day I have an issue with mine, I will simply buy another, and hope the later version is just as good.
I know the feeling of parting with items too, but I am going to have to start soon. I am not getting any younger.
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