I thought the NSA thing was going to improve, not go backward!

[amirm]

I had no idea some are trying to codify the eyebrow raising things that NSA has been accused of: http://www.dailytech.com/Sen+Feinst...g+on+Americans+Make+it+Legal/article33681.htm

"Sen. Feinstein's "Improvement" to NSA Spying on Americans: Make it Legal

Senator spews forth legislation that would institutionalize the government tracking Americans daily

"I feel I have an obligation to do everything I can to keep this country safe. So put that in your pipe and smoke it," Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) told reporters in June.

[...]

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) a foremmost defender of the Constitution in the digital age comments:

Don’t be fooled: the bill codifies some of the NSA’s worst practices, would be a huge setback for everyone’s privacy, and it would permanently entrench the NSA’s collection of every phone record held by U.S. telecoms. We urge members of Congress to oppose it.

We learned for the first time in June that the NSA secretly twisted and re-interpreted Section 215 of the Patriot Act six years ago to allow them to vacuum up every phone record in America—continuing an unconstitutional program that began in 2001. The new leaks about this mass surveillance program four months ago have led to a sea change in how Americans view privacy, and poll after poll has shown the public wants it to stop.

But instead of listening to her constituents, Sen. Feinstein put forth a bill designed to allow the NSA to monitor their calls. Sen. Feinstein wants the NSA to continue to collect the metadata of every phone call in the United States—that’s who you call, who calls you, the time and length of the conversation, and under the government’s interpretation, potentially your location—and store it for five years. This is not an NSA reform bill, it’s an NSA entrenchment bill."

Read the article for the full write-up, opinion.

One interesting aspect of this is the threat to the Internet. Due to spying accusations, nations around the world are thinking about partitioning their network and disallow American companies from building networking infrastructure for them. Recently AT&T lost such an opportunity in one of the European country. I can just see that spreading to Cisco, etc. Internet has unified all the nations in the world. Having it go backward for such a reason makes little sense to me.

What say you???

 

[NorthStar]

It's a terrible thing!

Oliver Stone had something too to say about it, and I agree with him (google).
And that's all I can say for now about that.

They, the NSA, crossed the line.

____________

 

[Orb]

Balance is needed for sure but that should be ensuring it is locked and cannot be used/sold to others.
If I remember when the President visits any location all calls-texts-emails-etc are intercepted in roughly a 3 to 5 mile radius just as described above.

This is just a digital version of street cameras and it will continue but key is who can access the information (unfortunately the American governmnet is pretty crud at that going by all the leaks due to use of contractors and sub-staff).

Regarding American companies losing out; that would be shockingly ironic considering Huawei are frikking allowed to build key telecoms infrastructure in UK and other European regions.
If anyone should be blocked it is Huawei for many reasons, China must be laughing so hard at the moment.

Cheers
Orb

 

[rrr]

Continued, and continually expanding surveillance by all possible means is inevitable. The issue of privacy is just going to fade away as threat issues continue to evolve. People will get used to the idea.

 

[amirm]

On a "good news" front, the cyber security division is being separated from NSA and will get its own chief. Currently the NSA chief overseas both. It is said that by doing so, there will be less overreach by NSA.

And oh, to NSA agents reading this, we have nothing to hide . Just having a conversation about what you all are doing.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have mixed feelings about this. Did they cross a line? Sure. Which line? Where is that line? What did they accomplish/what were their objectives in crossing that line? What oversight is in place to keep them limited to those objectives? Loss of privacy to prevent something like 9/11 from happening again? That's not such a bad trade off. Loss of freedom? A step toward police state? Not so much. And is there potential for abuse? Tons of it. One thing I have no mixed feelings about at all is private contractors in national security. Whoever thinks that is a good idea needs his head examined.

When I was a young man, this would have been easy. I would have considered this a Big Brother-esque violation of personal freedom, There would have been no mixed feelings. But tme has revealed a world that is significantly more dangerous and complex than I once thought. I guess, to misquote Jack Nicholson, I want someone on that wall. But I damned sure don't want someone motivated by the next quarter's ROI there. That's just stupid.

Tim

 

[amirm]

I don't have any trust in governments ability to deploy computer systems and networks. Look at how easy it was for Snowden to download gigabytes and gigabytes of classified data that were not remotely connected to his job. And this was the guy that was a consultant and not on the inside. So the question becomes, how long will it be before the "next Snowden" captures all our private data and sells to others? The latest reports say that NSA tapped the private network between Google and Yahoo servers. Such communication is not always encrypted since the path was considered secure. NSA allegedly tapped the fiber optics link overseas that carried such data. What this means is that everything people have done with Google and Yahoo from mail to registering your Android device is in their hands. In my case, we run my company's email on Google Apps. Thousands of other companies do the same so that data is also potentially expose.

Think they are competent? Was watching the US 60 Minutes news program. They were talking to the lawyers and prosecutors of the Sept 11 in Guantanamo Bay. One of the lawyers was talking to his client and the client captures the attention of the guard and asks if their conversation is being recorded, pointing to a device on the ceiling. The guard says, no, that is a smoke detector and indeed it looked like one. The lawyer though, googles the company name on said detector and finds that it is a company that only makes listening devices including some that look like smoke detector! How could someone source such products and not even think about getting them unbranded at least?

I am sure in the context of classical, old school security NSA is super strong. In the new world though, when the most powerful software companies cannot create bug free systems and networks, it is hard to imagine our government in secrecy can do better. So the assumption going in should be that this data will get out and on that day, it is not just our government that knows all of this but also every criminal does too.

As you Tim, I see the "good" in this. But the bad is starting to smell like old fish. The longer it sits, the worse it is smelling . An oversight group not under their chain of command with security clearance that includes some software and technology experts should be there to review what they do and how they safeguard the data. Capturing gigabytes upon gigabytes means a large data center at NSA with countless people who can access it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As you Tim, I see the "good" in this. But the bad is starting to smell like old fish. The longer it sits, the worse it is smelling . An oversight group not under their chain of command with security clearance that includes some software and technology experts should be there to review what they do and how they safeguard the data. Capturing gigabytes upon gigabytes means a large data center at NSA with countless people who can access it.

Agreed. Strenuous oversight is the only answer, and probably not an adequate one. And I hear you about not trusting the governement to be competent in such a complex endeavor. I just don't have any more confidence in private contractors securing national safety and personal information with both eyes on the bottom line. There is not a good answer here yet.

Tim

 

[rrr]

The NSA strategy is to capture everything.

Their Utah Date Center will archive everything, everything ever captured, every telephone conversation, every email, every Facebook Post, etc etc etc, and it will be able to provide this data to queries made by analysts. This will allow the look up of conversation elements covering years of history, based on various combinations of search terms and data elements, user, trigger word, location, telephone number and will allow the analysis of complex relationships among potential terrorists etc. NSA has expanded substantially since 911, so much that they ran out of available electricity in Baltimore so they had to expand in other areas where the vast amounts of electricity were available. With all these new facilities, considering the threats we face and keeping in mind the damage a couple of people with a boxcutter can do, it just doesn't seem likely that NSA is going to be changing it's direction.

 

[jazdoc]

Not a great sense of humor at the NSA



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-government-listens.html?ico=ushome^headlines

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The NSA strategy is to capture everything.

Their Utah Date Center will archive everything, everything ever captured, every telephone conversation, every email, every Facebook Post, etc etc etc, and it will be able to provide this data to queries made by analysts. This will allow the look up of conversation elements covering years of history, based on various combinations of search terms and data elements, user, trigger word, location, telephone number and will allow the analysis of complex relationships among potential terrorists etc. NSA has expanded substantially since 911, so much that they ran out of available electricity in Baltimore so they had to expand in other areas where the vast amounts of electricity were available. With all these new facilities, considering the threats we face and keeping in mind the damage a couple of people with a boxcutter can do, it just doesn't seem likely that NSA is going to be changing it's direction.

Yep. And that's not a bad strategy for combatting organized, underground, international, nation-unaffiliated organized crime (terrorist organizations). Unfortunately it creates a vast database of private information that won't go away, and has tremendous potential for unspeakable abuse. It's sort of Ok as long as reasonable people are in charge (did I actually say that?). Get yourself a J Edgar Hoover or a Richard Nixon and you'll have big trouble; a Machiavellian paranoid who knows everything about everybody out to get him. Scary stuff, that. I don't know what the alternative is, though. In fact, I don't know how we can really avoid the stink of collecting the same kind of data around the world, even from our allies (who, by the way, doth protest too much).

It's almost enough to make you miss good old-fashioned war.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

France, Germany, Russia, China, Korea, Japan, Syria, Egypt, Iran, ... they aren't much impressed with the NSA from the USA.
Canada too is spying; on Brazil, on Europe, on ... They too have their own spying agency.

This won't ever go away; it will keep escalating till the end of times. ...And with it, everything that it encompasses, good and bad.
Can't escape our resulting destiny. ..It is part of our evolution, our principles, our own protection, our ideas, our fundamental values, our technological advancements, our spying desires, our competitive edge on international businesses, our economic survival, our ways of doing things; yesterday, today, and increasingly tomorrow.

________________

Cameras are everywhere, phone conversations are listened by everyone, and the Internet is the messenger of it all.
- Rob Ford, Toronto's mayor, is just waiting to see his video hit online.
...And he apologized! ...For what; he said he didn't do anything wrong! ...Spies don't tell lies, they live by them; that's their job, and they are usually very good at it, or else ...

Is it much to do about what others know about us or us what we know about others? ...We all spying each other, more or less.
Here, there, and everywhere. ...And now, yesterday, and most likely tomorrow.

If everything you do in life is good, when then worry about what others know about you and spying on you?

And if you're bad; a murderer, a terrorist, a rapist, a child abuser, ... would you like to know about it?

________________

Today's and tomorrow's wars are based on spying.

 

[edorr]

Yep. And that's not a bad strategy for combatting organized, underground, international, nation-unaffiliated organized crime (terrorist organizations).

Wait until some Teaparty nutcase comes into power and starts using the spying infrastructure to track suspected "subversive homosexual activities".

Far fetched? Check out Ken Cuccinelli, running for governor in Virginia on a platform that includes reinstating anti-sodomy laws. If nutcases of this caliber have a chance of getting into public office in the USA, all bets are off.

Damn, this statement may be in the NSA database, and I may end up on his watchlist.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Wait until some Teaparty nutcase comes into power and starts using the spying infrastructure to track suspected "subversive homosexual activities".

Far fetched? Check out Ken Cuccinelli, running for governor in Virginia on a platform that includes reinstating anti-sodomy laws. If nutcases of this caliber have a chance of getting into public office in the USA, all bets are off.

Damn, this statement may be in the NSA database, and I may end up on his watchlist.

I don't think that's far-fetched at all, except it won't be a Tea Party nutcase; none of those guys get to be president. I'm not sure very many of those guys are going to get a second term. I thik the J Edgar Hoover/Richard Nixon scenario is probably the more realistic one. Some career politician or public servant with great game face who seems pretty normal but is a raging egomaniacal paranoid below the surface. There have been a bunch of them, but they usually end up in Congress, chairing kangaroo court committees. It's rare that they make it into positions of extreme power and danger, but it happens. Putting this kind of power there for them to abuse is scary.

P

 

[NorthStar]

Why is that that the government didn't hire the NSA to build the Obamacare's website (system), instead of that Canadian company?

 

[edorr]

Why is that that the government didn't hire the NSA to build the Obamacare's website (system), instead of that Canadian company?

I'm sure there are very competent program managers within federal government agencies that could have pulled this off (IRS comes to mind). They are probably very siloed, and the federal healthcare folks have zero experience managing a project of this size and complexity.

 

[jazdoc]

Makes you wish for the good old days when it was fashionable to be outraged that the government was intercepting overseas calls to terrorists...

 

[NorthStar]

On a "good news" front, the cyber security division is being separated from NSA and will get its own chief. Currently the NSA chief overseas both.
It is said that by doing so, there will be less overreach by NSA.

And oh, to NSA agents reading this, we have nothing to hide . Just having a conversation about what you all are doing.

"Good news"! ... "It is said ..."

Perhaps the spying will be more intensified now that two organisations are sharing the duties of the nation's 'protection plan'.
More money, more people, more machines, more data, more spying.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Makes you wish for the good old days when it was fashionable to be outraged that the government was intercepting overseas calls to terrorists...

I'm sure it's still fashionable in some circles, doc, we just don't run in those circles.

tim

 

[NorthStar]

China, Russia, ... they are big spying countries too.