Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?

[PYP]

I suspect this depends on who is the cash infuser. Designer creativity may be for nought if it is private equity or venture capital who is either ignorant about audio or seeking to sell pieces.

"Masimo, a medical tech company, lacks the expertise to run an audio business. They’re experts at hospital equipment, but high-end speakers are a different game entirely."

I see great success and perhaps frailty from brands started by creative individuals who built a company around themselves. It is sometimes hard for those companies to survive the retirement or passage of the founder. Some do long term planning for sucession and maintain continuity (David Wilson), some sell the company in hopes of carrying the brand forward which can be touch and go (William Z Johnson) or continue on under corporate ownership (JBL); some struggle for a while and fail (Theil). Will Magnepan survive Wendell Diller, Marketing Manager who suceeded Jim Winey creative founder? Will Atma-Sphere survive Ralph Karsten? Will Shunyata continue new product release when Caelin Gabriel retires? Dan D’Agostino moved on but Krell, who carried on for a while may be struggling after its owner, Rhondi Dagastino died in an accident.

It's not just aging consumers or younger fans looking for downsized mobility -- are there new creative designers who can create companies? In today's world are their talented budding enthusiasts looking to enter the high-end with the same passion and drive of industry pioneers?

This is the kind of topic I wish audio mags and others would cover. Given my gear, I'm most familiar with the very different stories - both successful - of Bruno Putzeys and Eelco Grimm.

Bruno is like a meteor: Grimm, Hypex/Mola Mola, Kii, Purifi. Can he establish or help establish companies? Yes, indeed. Are there a lot of products out there that use his designs. Yes, very much so (although some may not like it, he put Class D on the map).

Eelco might seem like more of an example of slow and steady, but that is only from the perspective of domestic hifi. Previous to the current success with active speakers, MU1, MU2, and now the phono stage, Grimm Audio supplied top flight digital gear (AD and clocks) to pro audio and thus recording studios. Eelco has his own label. He is an engineering professor inspiring the next generation (so is Guido Tent his partner in crime).

And there is the link: fine engineering schools. But why leave it to chance? Why not create the linkages between the steps similar to Danish Sound Cluster. It seems similar in some way to sports. With a large enough population the top talent emerges. With smaller populations, cultivation works well. [Edited]

So, back to audio. Perhaps it is the engineering schools that have been the drivers in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, etc., places that are producing good gear. If so, then we might answer in the positive to your query.

 

[Lee]

I suspect this depends on who is the cash infuser. Designer creativity may be for nought if it is private equity or venture capital who is either ignorant about audio or seeking to sell pieces.

"Masimo, a medical tech company, lacks the expertise to run an audio business. They’re experts at hospital equipment, but high-end speakers are a different game entirely."

I see great success and perhaps frailty from brands started by creative individuals who built a company around themselves. It is sometimes hard for those companies to survive the retirement or passage of the founder. Some do long term planning for sucession and maintain continuity (David Wilson), some sell the company in hopes of carrying the brand forward which can be touch and go (William Z Johnson) or continue on under corporate ownership (JBL); some struggle for a while and fail (Theil). Will Magnepan survive Wendell Diller, Marketing Manager who suceeded Jim Winey creative founder? Will Atma-Sphere survive Ralph Karsten? Will Shunyata continue new product release when Caelin Gabriel retires? Dan D’Agostino moved on but Krell, who carried on for a while may be struggling after its owner, Rhondi Dagastino died in an accident.

It's not just aging consumers or younger fans looking for downsized mobility -- are there new creative designers who can create companies? In today's world are their talented budding enthusiasts looking to enter the high-end with the same passion and drive of industry pioneers?

Caelin and Grant are both in good health as far as I know. Maybe Richard Rogers can help as well. Dan has Bill McKiegan. Didn’t Jim Winey already pass the reigns to his son Steve?

The industry has a decent track record of succession. Harry > Mat Wiesfeld. David > Daryl Wilson. Jim > Steve Winey.

 

[Lee]

This is the kind of topic I wish audio mags and others would cover. Given my gear, I'm most familiar with the very different stories - both successful - of Bruno Putzeys and Eelco Grimm.

Bruno is like a meteor: Grimm, Hypex/Mola Mola, Kii, Purifi. Can he establish or help establish companies? Yes, indeed. Are there a lot of products out there that use his designs. Yes, very much so (although some may not like it, he put Class D on the map).

Eelco might seem like more of an example of slow and steady, but that is only from the perspective of domestic hifi. Previous to the current success with active speakers, MU1, MU2, and now the phono stage, Grimm Audio supplied top flight digital gear (AD and clocks) to pro audio and thus recording studios. Eelco has his own label. He is an engineering professor inspiring the next generation (so is Guido Tent his partner in crime).

And there is the link: fine engineering schools. But why leave it to chance? Why not create the linkages between the steps similar to Danish Sound Cluster. It seems similar in some way to sports. With a large enough population the top talent emerges. With smaller populations, cultivation works well.

But it is also similar to medical research done in universities. In the U.S., which does a lot of research that helps populations all over the world, one link is federal funding and the regulatory side that allows profits from licensing to stay within the university, which creates a virtuous circle of innovation. This is basically a medical innovation engine. In the U.S. there are so many smart folks that the universities don't go out looking for the talent that will one day work within its system, although some do have fine programs that educate such people and these programs themselves attract the talent.

So, back to audio. Perhaps it is the engineering schools that have been the drivers in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland, etc., places that are producing good gear. If so, then we might answer in the positive to your query.

Bruno is a remarkable designer. I love the Mola Mola and Kii equipment.

 

[PYP]

Government spending increases inflation. A rare area of bipartsian agreement among economists.

• 42% of inflation could be attributed to government spending.
• 17% could be attributed to inflation expectations — that is, the rate at which consumers expect prices to continue to increase.
• 14% could be blamed on high interest rates.

Federal spending was responsible for the 2022 spike in inflation, research shows | MIT Sloan

mitsloan.mit.edu

 

[treitz3]

Let's please not go there...

Tom

 

[tima]

And there is the link: fine engineering schools. But why leave it to chance? Why not create the linkages between the steps similar to Danish Sound Cluster. It seems similar in some way to sports. With a large enough population the top talent emerges. With smaller populations, cultivation works well.

Interesting.

"Sound technology is one of Denmark's strongest tech areas. In order to maintain and develop that position, industry players must work together."

Maybe supplement that with furniture design.

Danish Sound Cluster

We collaborate to support a world-class sound environment in Denmark We are a member forum for collaboration, networking and business development. We work with

www.eot-expo.com

 

[Jriley]

I don’t think this is a concern. I think this will always be a hobby mainly for relatively affluent obsessive compulsive types, and the market has responded fairly well to it. It’s the expense which necessarily limits this to (primarily) affluent men. It is primarily a male hobby.

Not saying that you can’t get good sound relatively inexpensively, but the example given by exupgh12 still averages out to around 9 or 10k. That’s a lot of dough for most people and many of those people would consider a $1,000 soundbar something of a luxury which perfectly fits their home theater and music needs. Ear buds are also perfectly adequate for many people. Many people listen to music through very modest systems and are content.

Aside from the obvious economic issues, I think there is also the role music plays in people’s lives. Many if not most people don’t listen to a lot of music, and the times they do it might be some pop music which is joyfully consumed while driving a car or in the background on a Bluetooth speaker while doing a chore or having a party. The emphasis on music’s reproduction is far from most people’s consciousness because the modest means they use to listen to it is good enough, and sitting by oneself to listen to music will strike the social music listener as a bit odd.

The idea that “better and greater interest in music” can lead to more audiophiles is a very interesting one. Im inclined to think it can, but likely only a modest amount. The finest reproduction of music will always be attractive to a certain number of people, but most, whether because of economy or listening habits, will settle for the modesty and simplicity of good enough.

On the other hand, the poor reproduction of music can certainly turn people off. I remember reading how the Port Authority in New York tried using classical music played through screechy loudspeakers to scare away vagrants, and it worked. Is there a lesson here?

I have always liked music,especially great live performances.I am a boomer and I’ve always been considered an audiophile by most of my friends.However I never really heard the “magic”of 2 channel music set up correctly until my seventh decade at a dealers home.I fell in love big time.Maybe part of the problem is exposure to a properly set up system.Thoughts?

 

[Rexp]

I have always liked music,especially great live performances.I am a boomer and I’ve always been considered an audiophile by most of my friends.However I never really heard the “magic”of 2 channel music set up correctly until my seventh decade at a dealers home.I fell in love big time.Maybe part of the problem is exposure to a properly set up system.Thoughts?

Agreed, what was the system you heard?

 

[Lee]

I have always liked music,especially great live performances.I am a boomer and I’ve always been considered an audiophile by most of my friends.However I never really heard the “magic”of 2 channel music set up correctly until my seventh decade at a dealers home.I fell in love big time.Maybe part of the problem is exposure to a properly set up system.Thoughts?

Definitely a factor imho.

 

[PYP]

Interesting.

"Sound technology is one of Denmark's strongest tech areas. In order to maintain and develop that position, industry players must work together."

Maybe supplement that with furniture design.

Danish Sound Cluster

We collaborate to support a world-class sound environment in Denmark We are a member forum for collaboration, networking and business development. We work with

www.eot-expo.com

I find it interesting too. Obviously, they started with a fresh analysis of what they wanted to accomplish and then proceeded to connect the dots between the education system and industry [Note: nothing political is intended in my comments; this is just pragmatic analysis].

Perhaps folks interested in ensuring the future of our hobby should do a similar analysis (or perhaps they have). As I mentioned, one can leave it all to chance, or there can be an effort made to smooth the way. Obviously, this is done in other industries (for example, local industry working closely with community colleges as feeder schools -- everyone wins). Is audio different?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Id say tune up

 

[Tiltedfault]

I have always liked music,especially great live performances.I am a boomer and I’ve always been considered an audiophile by most of my friends.However I never really heard the “magic”of 2 channel music set up correctly until my seventh decade at a dealers home.I fell in love big time.Maybe part of the problem is exposure to a properly set up system.Thoughts?

Oh, it’s definitely exposure to properly set up systems. You have to first be able to hear something good. Here major metropolitan areas have a distinct advantage, both in dealerships, audio shows, clubs, as well as individuals you could meet to hear their systems.

Of course some dealers are located in the hinterlands, but as an audiophile, you should be willing to do a little traveling to the big cities, like Willie Sutton would say, “because that’s where the money is”. And that’s where the greatest variety of gear and different set ups both high dollar and (relatively) inexpensive you are likely to see and hear will be.

 

[tima]

I find it interesting too. Obviously, they started with a fresh analysis of what they wanted to accomplish and then proceeded to connect the dots between the education system and industry [Note: nothing political is intended in my comments; this is just pragmatic analysis].

Perhaps folks interested in ensuring the future of our hobby should do a similar analysis (or perhaps they have). As I mentioned, one can leave it all to chance, or there can be an effort made to smooth the way. Obviously, this is done in other industries (for example, local industry working closely with community colleges as feeder schools -- everyone wins). Is audio different?

There are tradeoffs either way. I see the education system as a means to an EE degree, maybe training in psycho-acoustics, or listening theory. For audio circuit or speaker design, cookie cutter education might get in the way. As a product of the American education system and as a member of the academy for several years, I'm of mixed mind on its potential to be helpful versus training with a master.

What is the output of the Danish group? Have they made a mark?

 

[PYP]

There are tradeoffs either way. I see the education system as a means to an EE degree, maybe training in psycho-acoustics, or listening theory. For audio circuit or speaker design, cookie cutter education might get in the way. As a product of the American education system and as a member of the academy for several years, I'm of mixed mind on its potential to be helpful versus training with a master.

What is the output of the Danish group? Have they made a mark?

If I were trying to understand the educational path, I would ask Bruno Putzeys, Eelco Grimm and Guido Tent to start with. Since Eelco and Guido still teach they would have a good view of what works and doesn't, I would think.

This is the report card for the Danish group (note the section that explains how they have broadened their mission): https://danishsoundcluster.dk/en/danish-sound-cluster-has-achieved-gold-label-certification/

I'm not suggesting cloning anything. Just information gathering: What worked, what didn't and why? What was pivotal to your success? etc.

 

[tima]

If I were trying to understand the educational path, I would ask Bruno Putzeys, Eelco Grimm and Guido Tent to start with. Since Eelco and Guido still teach they would have a good view of what works and doesn't, I would think.

This is the report card for the Danish group (note the section that explains how they have broadened their mission): https://danishsoundcluster.dk/en/danish-sound-cluster-has-achieved-gold-label-certification/

I'm not suggesting cloning anything. Just information gathering: What worked, what didn't and why? What was pivotal to your success? etc.

So the DSC is kinda like what I'd call a trade association? Your last paragraph makes sense.

 

[PYP]

So the DSC is kinda like what I'd call a trade association? Your last paragraph makes sense.

That is how I see it - a trade association. The duties would include education, outreach/promotion, data gathering, networking, standard setting (such as review standards)...

Of course, I'm seeing this as a hobbyist and not as someone who is familiar with how the audio manufacturing/sales community works in reality. Might be completely impractical or unnecessary. The lack of easily accessible data, however, got me thinking that such an association might be beneficial. It is fun for hobbyist to speculate, as many have done on this thread, but if there are serious challenges to the industry, and it seems there are just as there are to many industries trying to adjust to changing markets, then data is vital.

 

[tima]

Of course, I'm seeing this as a hobbyist and not as someone who is familiar with how the audio manufacturing/sales community works in reality. Might be completely impractical or unnecessary. The lack of easily accessible data, however, got me thinking that such an association might be beneficial. It is fun for hobbyist to speculate, as many have done on this thread, but if there are serious challenges to the industry, and it seems there are just as there are to many industries trying to adjust to changing markets, then data is vital.

To my knowledge there is nothing like that for audio, at least in the US. My sense is that all participants - manufacturers, distributors, dealers and larger media - are quite independent and competitive. Pals at happy hour but keeping information pretty closely held. Attempts at idea and proprietary info poaching seems to be a reality. Lawsuits are not unknown though hush hush and there is a certain wariness about sharing information, including sales and audience data.

 

[Rexp]

I think digital systems would sound and sell better if more new albums were recorded in analog, like this one:

 

[Rensselaer]

I think digital systems would sound and sell better if more new albums were recorded in analog, like this one:

View attachment 142678

I think more analogue systems would sell if all vinyl records were recorded (AAA) only, no digital to analogue records allowed. No digital processing/editing/mastering allowed. Then if record producers want digital recordings they can process/master/ in digital from the analogue master to CD, hard memory for streaming, whatever etc afterwards (ADD).

 

[steve59]

It’s simple economics.Have you ever considered the average debt of an American family and whether it has risen compared to previous decades? Alongside this, it’s worth reflecting on whether the economic equality index in the U.S. and globally has worsened. If it has, it indicates that fewer people have disposable income for hobbies that have grown increasingly expensive.

While it’s true that today’s millionaires have more wealth than ever, this doesn’t mean they can—or want to—spend more on high-end audio systems. Ultimately, mass production and broad market demand outweigh the consumption habits of a small group of affluent individuals. This creates challenges for industries that rely heavily on niche, luxury markets for sustained growth.

I live in a blue collar neighborhood, small business owners, you know us, the right around 6 figure folk, give or take a few grand. Children cost money and many of us manage to keep up by refinancing our homes every 4-5 years to pay down debt for private clubs like gymnastics, dance, etc. Not much money for hifi for the majority of us that'd rather have a fishing boat, motorcycle or nice work truck. This s**t won't hold.