Hi Legolas,
See my posts #72 and #73 regarding this issue. RIAA data includes paid subscription sales, which incudes sales revenue from Qobuz and Tidal.
Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?
- Thread starter exupgh12
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See my posts #72 and #73 regarding this issue. RIAA data includes paid subscription sales, which incudes sales revenue from Qobuz and Tidal.
This is a weird article. They are estimating the 40% based on a video of a really old Krell amp? Why not a current product? KSA 80? Seriously? And the 40% is age 65+. Why will they stop buying soon or die off? Longevity is increasing and I have several friends above 65 actively buying gear.
I think audio journalists need better critical thinking skills.
Our Managing Partner was in town today and he calls me up and say, “Hey Lee, I have family in town and I’ve told some of them about your system and they really want to hear it. It’s my son in law and two young boys, do you have time for us to visit?” I said sure and at 4pm we started listening. They kept marvelling at the sound saying things like, “It feels so smooth and natural.” “It’s very realistic.” “The bass is incredible.”
It really struck home to me that we just need to give this experience to people. I don’t think it’s an ago issue. I think it is an awareness issue. We have several things going for us…vinyl is super cool and embraced by all ages. Headphones are really cool.
At some point, just 1% will want a two channel system. That will be enough to sustain high end audio.
Also, peak earnings age is 48. The hobby skews older due in part to more dispoable income at that age and perhaps having more free time from kids growing up, etc.
It really struck home to me that we just need to give this experience to people. I don’t think it’s an ago issue. I think it is an awareness issue. We have several things going for us…vinyl is super cool and embraced by all ages. Headphones are really cool.
At some point, just 1% will want a two channel system. That will be enough to sustain high end audio.
Also, peak earnings age is 48. The hobby skews older due in part to more dispoable income at that age and perhaps having more free time from kids growing up, etc.
i'm approaching the end of my 7th decade. i've been hearing this "lament" ever since i was a teenager. it was bunk then, it's bunk now. while hardware and software change, the fact is "audiophilia", the "high end", or whatever else you want to call it, has always been a lunatic fringe hobby.
hardware may change, software may change, recording methods may change. but there will always be a small portion of the music listening population that will strive for the best quality sound reproduction they can get, depending on their circumstances. budgets may vary, rooms may vary, (the room being the single most important component in achieving quality audio reproduction, imo), but there will always be that lunatic fringe. us old farts will certainly transition, but we've always been in the extreme minority, and there are plenty of folks in the younger generations engaged.
my local f/b audio/video forum/club has almost 3k members. yes, there's plenty of old farts. but we're outnumbered by people in their 20's, 30's, 40's interested in more than casual listening. and they will keep this lunatic fringe thing alive. same as it ever was.
doug s.
hardware may change, software may change, recording methods may change. but there will always be a small portion of the music listening population that will strive for the best quality sound reproduction they can get, depending on their circumstances. budgets may vary, rooms may vary, (the room being the single most important component in achieving quality audio reproduction, imo), but there will always be that lunatic fringe. us old farts will certainly transition, but we've always been in the extreme minority, and there are plenty of folks in the younger generations engaged.
my local f/b audio/video forum/club has almost 3k members. yes, there's plenty of old farts. but we're outnumbered by people in their 20's, 30's, 40's interested in more than casual listening. and they will keep this lunatic fringe thing alive. same as it ever was.
doug s.
I hear what you're saying about the methodology, Lee. You make fair points about using the KSA 80 as a reference and about active 65+ audiophiles. But my concern isn't just about current enthusiasts "aging out" - it's about younger people not entering the hobby at the same rate.
When you look at audio shows and hi-fi shops, the average age keeps creeping up. While your 65+ friends are still buying gear, where are the 25-35 year olds who will carry the torch for high-end audio?
Maybe instead of focusing on the "40% disappearing" angle, we should discuss how to make this hobby more accessible to younger generations without compromising quality. Thoughts on bridging this gap?
That’s why we should leave our gear to those interested in opening listening bars (Japanese Kissa).
Welcome to the 21st century, where "crisis" is just a new word for "Tuesday."Everything is in crises these days .
Just a case of adapt ....move on
I think you hit the nail right on the head Lee, albeit by accident:
“It really struck home to me that we just need to give this experience to people”.
You gave them one of those EXPERIENCES young people crave. They loved listening to your uber system. I’d be surprised if selfies weren’t taken. But do they have an interest in the caring and feeding of such a beast? I have my doubts. Onto the next experience. Skydiving, anyone?
Merry Christmas, Lee!
Do you think that today, in the United States, there are 34 million two-channel systems? I think this is possible, if we include two-channel systems from Best Buy.
But if you're talking about this being enough to sustain high-end audio, then I assume that you are assuming that most of these are high-end audio two-channel systems.
I would be very surprised if there are anywhere near 34 million high-audio two-channel systems in the US today.
One day I walked into Harry's store, ie Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak, MI. I was in town on business. It was ca. 2009. Harry had a new pair of Quad ESL speakers that he was featuring. He still had his Maggie's, the 20.1's set up in the store. Harry was partial to planar speakers but he carried cone speakers too. Audio Research gear and planars are a great match. So Harry invites me to take a listen to this new model of Quad ESL speakers. I listen for a bit and they sound real good. I make the comment to him that I could see the panels moving during the bass notes. He went off on me telling me that I'm supposed to listen with my eyes closed. That was Harry.
The thing is, everyone has to find their style. We have all types of box speakers, horns, panels, electrostatic and even plasma arc. We have all types of electronics each with their unique sound and sources that range from despicable to heavenly. Without a way to audition the various combinations of all these possibilities (well not all, that would take some time) how can anyone dive into this hobby at these prices and feel like they are getting their money's worth? I have doubts all the time myself.
Of course, some high pressure sales people back in the day were not helpful either trying to convince people they had the secret sauce that no one else had. The great stores had great setups and let you browse and listen to find your voice- your style of stereophonic reproduction.
Online shopping for gear ends well at best maybe half the time for someone well knowledgeable in this hobby. Odds are not good for the neophytes. Headphones remove a lot of complexity from the equation and are certainly cheaper to return versus a pair of XVX.
I still say more showrooms, more exposure to complete systems are the key.
The thing is, everyone has to find their style. We have all types of box speakers, horns, panels, electrostatic and even plasma arc. We have all types of electronics each with their unique sound and sources that range from despicable to heavenly. Without a way to audition the various combinations of all these possibilities (well not all, that would take some time) how can anyone dive into this hobby at these prices and feel like they are getting their money's worth? I have doubts all the time myself.
Of course, some high pressure sales people back in the day were not helpful either trying to convince people they had the secret sauce that no one else had. The great stores had great setups and let you browse and listen to find your voice- your style of stereophonic reproduction.
Online shopping for gear ends well at best maybe half the time for someone well knowledgeable in this hobby. Odds are not good for the neophytes. Headphones remove a lot of complexity from the equation and are certainly cheaper to return versus a pair of XVX.
I still say more showrooms, more exposure to complete systems are the key.
Sure, this is easy to write. But how do you propose to make this happen?
If by showrooms you mean brick & mortar high-end audio retail dealer showrooms I think the likelihood of a net increase in the number of brick & mortar high-end audio retail dealer showrooms over the next five years is very low.
Bridging the gap? Read my posts herein. I have offered up a number of suggestions.
I’m not sure “age is creeping up” is accurate. Lots of young people at Axpona, Flax, Capitol, etc too. It skew heavily older too but that is a function of available free time and income/wealth too.
Correct me if I'm wrong because I was never in retail. My perception is that dealers buy the gear that they display in their stores and keep in inventory. That's a lot of money a dealer has tied up in inventory.
Instead, manufacturers collaborate to rent showroom space. Just like at Axpona, manufacturers set up systems in rooms in collaboration with other manufacturers to complete the package for a full stereo system. Create showrooms around the country that have a curator to manage the space, provide security, answer some questions, advertise and host events. Each exhibit could have a kiosk or a http link for the potential customer to contact a manufacturer or dealer. The curator would not be involved in the sales process other than to facilitate ordering.
It would be a casual way with less intimidation for people to browse and get exposure to audio. They could hear different system types and sources to determine what they like best. Manufacturers would get exposure and potential feedback from people regarding their equipment. Perhaps more honest feedback in a low pressure environment. Kind of like an art gallery.
Maybe 1% at 3.4 million stereos is a bit high but the industry doesn’t offer much data given its niche size. But let’s assume 0.5%, that still seems doable.
How to have a better analysis of industry growth or contraction…
Ideally we would have numbers from a large manufacturer like McIntosh by age group. Then we would have numbers by age group over time.
20-29
30-39
40-49
50-59
60-69
70+
Look at the numbers in 2024 and compare with 2019. Then…
1. See which age groups are growing or contracting.
2. See what the firm’s overall sales are doing so an average purchase per customer can be computed.
3. Compare age segments to overall US income growth for that age.
Key questions:
1. Which age groups are growing? Which are declining? What’s the trend in total customers?
2. Are the numbers of customers declining but average purchase dollars going up?
3. What evidence is there that 30/40 somethings are moving to 40/50 somethings and buying more? I believe peak income is late 40s.
4. What is the correct replacement rate of new customers to replace older customers entering non-purchase age? Thinking is that we focus on actual demand versus death. For example, purchasing may end at 80 but not death. Also we need to use projected lifespans, as 60 year old customers likely will live longer lifespan than current 80 year olds.
Data challenges:
1. Does the age data exist (via warranty, etc.)? If not, can we append names, emails, and addresses to a national database?
2. Does the data exist longitudinally?
3. Would the manufacturer be willing to share an anonymized summary of the data publicly?
4. Is there “lifecycle” data that would allow insights on brand loyalty via repeat purchases?
Ideally we would have numbers from a large manufacturer like McIntosh by age group. Then we would have numbers by age group over time.
20-29
30-39
40-49
50-59
60-69
70+
Look at the numbers in 2024 and compare with 2019. Then…
1. See which age groups are growing or contracting.
2. See what the firm’s overall sales are doing so an average purchase per customer can be computed.
3. Compare age segments to overall US income growth for that age.
Key questions:
1. Which age groups are growing? Which are declining? What’s the trend in total customers?
2. Are the numbers of customers declining but average purchase dollars going up?
3. What evidence is there that 30/40 somethings are moving to 40/50 somethings and buying more? I believe peak income is late 40s.
4. What is the correct replacement rate of new customers to replace older customers entering non-purchase age? Thinking is that we focus on actual demand versus death. For example, purchasing may end at 80 but not death. Also we need to use projected lifespans, as 60 year old customers likely will live longer lifespan than current 80 year olds.
Data challenges:
1. Does the age data exist (via warranty, etc.)? If not, can we append names, emails, and addresses to a national database?
2. Does the data exist longitudinally?
3. Would the manufacturer be willing to share an anonymized summary of the data publicly?
4. Is there “lifecycle” data that would allow insights on brand loyalty via repeat purchases?
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Another article on the subject.