Is it possible for a speaker to be accurate and warm at the same time

[rblnr]

Devolved into a bad creative writing class. Better, I think, to ask if it is possible for a speaker to be accurate and have a lower midrange emphasis at the same time. And I've changed my mind; it is not. It is possible, however, for a speaker to reproduce a lower midrange emphasis and be accurate at the same time,

Regarding the notion that the warm speaker/system might be a more accurate representative of the Performance, instrument, event, etc. than the more accurate reproduction of the recording, yes, this is possible, but pure chance. It is much more likely that you will convince yourself that your colored system is more life-like than one of higher fidelity, because believing it gives you a warm feeling to do so.

Tim

Don't think it's just the lower mids -- lots of speakers described as warm too roll off the highs. What I hear as extension is sometimes described as lending a 'cool' balance to things.

Let me put it this way -- there are speakers that will take a 'warm' recording, one that has a bit of emphasis in the lower mids by your definition and not sound warm -- they lack the resolving power to capture the full extent of the decay there. Warm is the opposite of thin here.

More common are speakers that attempt to mask a lack of resolution with underdamped lower mids/upper bass. I am 'on record' in a review or two decrying BS warmth, not my thing but a chunk of life is figuring out what you like and want.

The interesting question and value here is to define warmth so it's a genuinely useful term (unfortunately we need adjectives to describe things ) - - take it out of the bad creative writing class as you say.

A speaker that adds something is obviously not accurate but that's not much of a question.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Don't think it's just the lower mids -- lots of speakers described as warm too roll off the highs. What I hear as extension is sometimes described as lending a 'cool' balance to things.

Let me put it this way -- there are speakers that will take a 'warm' recording, one that has a bit of emphasis in the lower mids by your definition and not sound warm -- they lack the resolving power to capture the full extent of the decay there. Warm is the opposite of thin here.

More common are speakers that attempt to mask a lack of resolution with underdamped lower mids/upper bass. I am 'on record' in a review or two decrying BS warmth, not my thing but a chunk of life is figuring out what you like and want.

The interesting question and value here is to define warmth so it's a genuinely useful term (unfortunately we need adjectives to describe things ) - - take it out of the bad creative writing class as you say.

A speaker that adds something is obviously not accurate but that's not much of a question.

Little to disagree with here, except perhaps "resolving power," and maybe it's just semantics, but when I hear/use "resolution" in an audio context, I'm talking about the ability to retrieve/reveal detail in the recording, not tonal balance. I would expect a speaker that sounds thin, even when playing warm recordings, to reveal an emphasized upper midrange or muted lower one. And I'd add that your BS warmth, more often than not, is the result of that sound's great popularity, rather than a desire on the part of the manufacturer to mask weaknesses. In fact, that sound is so popular that many seem to hear "thin," "cold" and "clinical," where there is merely reproduction that is much more linear and accurate than what they are accustomed to. This is common in the high end; nearly the rule in midfi.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Let's not forget that the loudspeakers are only part of the acoustic equation.

I've been in exactly one hideously over damped room and every speaker I heard in there (it was a showroom, now defunct) made everything uniformly dull and bloated. One of the partners went out on his own, relocated and built a better showroom bringing along many of the same speakers. Now you can really hear their differences.

 

[microstrip]

Let's not forget that the loudspeakers are only part of the acoustic equation.

I've been in exactly one hideously over damped room and every speaker I heard in there (it was a showroom, now defunct) made everything uniformly dull and bloated. One of the partners went out on his own, relocated and built a better showroom bringing along many of the same speakers. Now you can really hear their differences.

And you should add the interaction with the amplifier/source/cables system. Consider a well known speaker, the Quad ESL63. I have heard it sounding warm or thin depending on system. And even in warm sounding systems it is a very detailed speaker.

 

[JackD201]

Indeed micro, that's also a part of the equation.

We circle back to the age old question. Flat in an anechoic environment or linear in room?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Indeed micro, that's also a part of the equation.

We circle back to the age old question. Flat in an anechoic environment or linear in room?

Hmmm...I've never seen that as the question, personally. Rooms, of course, have their effect, but surely if you begin with the system delivering as linear a response, in as broad a pattern as possible, getting a linear response in-room will be much easier? If not, we'd start with systems weak in the midbass and embrace room gain.

Let's not forget that the loudspeakers are only part of the acoustic equation.

Of course. Coupled with their set-up in room, they are just, by far, the biggest part of the equation. So big that they are able to render everything else nearly irrelevant. YMMV, of course, but I would take adequately powerful midfi source, pre and power, tethered together with Best Buy house brand cables, over high end electronics ending in mediocre speakers every time.

Tim

 

[A.wayne]

Little to disagree with here, except perhaps "resolving power," and maybe it's just semantics, but when I hear/use "resolution" in an audio context, I'm talking about the ability to retrieve/reveal detail in the recording, not tonal balance. I would expect a speaker that sounds thin, even when playing warm recordings, to reveal an emphasized upper midrange or muted lower one. And I'd add that your BS warmth, more often than not, is the result of that sound's great popularity, rather than a desire on the part of the manufacturer to mask weaknesses. In fact, that sound is so popular that many seem to hear "thin," "cold" and "clinical," where there is merely reproduction that is much more linear and accurate than what they are accustomed to. This is common in the high end; nearly the rule in midfi.

Tim

Yep,

when i hear it , everything sounds thick and muffled , the more accurate speaker will sound thin on some Correct on others , thick on a few , the speaker character will change with the recordings , not so with the thick warm sounding speaker, making most recordings sound similar ..

But if you like ....!!!

Most times the thin sound can be attributed to the digital source, i have experienced this on more than a few occasions .

 

[Gregadd]

Cold and sterile are distortions. I think to often reviewers have used the term "accurate" as an apologetic term for devices that measure will but don't sound right. Frequently words take on unintended meanings. If your speaker has a consistent sonic character as the music or recordings vary, you should be suspect. For example Janis Joplin or Alanis Morissette have a harsh tone. Liz Wright or Cassabdra Wilson have a silky smooth tone. A neutral speaker will reflect that.

 

[Robh3606]

I think to often reviewers have used the term "accurate" as an apologetic term for devices that measure will but don't sound right.

Hello Gregadd

Reviewers at Stereophile?? Who else does any measurements and JA does them after the fact. It amazes me that the term accuracy has any bad conotations.

the more accurate speaker will sound thin on some Correct on others , thick on a few , the speaker character will change with the recordings , not so with the thick warm sounding speaker, making most recordings sound similar ..

Hello A wayne

As it should be.

As far as the original question, sure why not it's all driven by the media.

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Cold and sterile are distortions. I think to often reviewers have used the term "accurate" as an apologetic term for devices that measure will but don't sound right. Frequently words take on unintended meanings. If your speaker has a consistent sonic character as the music or recordings vary, you should be suspect. For example Janis Joplin or Alanis Morissette have a harsh tone. Liz Wright or Cassabdra Wilson have a silky smooth tone. A neutral speaker will reflect that.

Frequently words do take on unintended meanings. In this case they're not just unintended, but wrong. This "cold," "sterile," and "accurate" would be better described as too bright. Just another non-linear response, at the other end. As for the rest of it, we are in rare agreement.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Reviewers at Stereophile?? Who else does any measurements and JA does them after the fact. It amazes me that the ter

It's a team effort. There is no need for redundancy. Reviewers are shown measurement after the review is submitted.

 

[microstrip]

Frequently words do take on unintended meanings. In this case they're not just unintended, but wrong. This "cold," "sterile," and "accurate" would be better described as too bright. Just another non-linear response, at the other end. As for the rest of it, we are in rare agreement.

Tim

We could be tempted to consider that an accurate speaker is a speaker without any defects, unhappily such thing does not exist, and even if it could exist it could not be proved to be perfect.

I would never use the words "cold," "sterile," and "accurate" with the same meaning. I would call cold a non involving sound, sterile an harsh sound and accurate a sound that privileges details and pinpoint over spaciousness and harmony. Surely YMMV.

The following two links to Axiom pages on this subject are really interesting

http://www.audiolofftreport.com/speakersound.html

http://www.axiomaudio.com/defining_speaker_sound.html?utm_source=1148&utm_medium=s&utm_campaign=dss

Some people consider that the sound of a loudspeaker can be fully described mainly by tonal descriptors, but I think they are insufficient to fully convey the sound we perceive from SOTA speakers. So we must go on using our non official subjective and sometimes ambiguous vocabulary, complementing it with examples of listening experiences with known recordings.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

We could be tempted to consider that an accurate speaker is a speaker without any defects, unhappily such thing does not exist, and even if it could exist it could not be proved to be perfect.

I would never use the words "cold," "sterile," and "accurate" with the same meaning. I would call cold a non involving sound, sterile an harsh sound and accurate a sound that privileges details and pinpoint over spaciousness and harmony. Surely YMMV.

The following two links to Axiom pages on this subject are really interesting

http://www.audiolofftreport.com/speakersound.html

http://www.axiomaudio.com/defining_speaker_sound.html?utm_source=1148&utm_medium=s&utm_campaign=dss

Some people consider that the sound of a loudspeaker can be fully described mainly by tonal descriptors, but I think they are insufficient to fully convey the sound we perceive from SOTA speakers. So we must go on using our non official subjective and sometimes ambiguous vocabulary, complementing it with examples of listening experiences with known recordings.

Well, we can at least agree on some things, Micro. For the rest, yes, our mileage varies. I wouldn't equate cold with non-involving because it is the music that involves me, and if it's good enough it rises far above any reasonable limitations of reproduciton. I wouldn't call sterile "harsh" because harshness is distortion, not a simple lack of linearity, but the gritty, nasty distortion. It's dirty; the opposite of sterile. And accurate? Well if the spaciousness and harmony are on the recording, but are not conveyed by the system, then it is inaccurate. If they are not on the recording and a sense of spaciousness and harmony is created by the system, then it is stillinaccurate. If you like its inaccurate spaciousness and harmony, enjoy.

Tim

 

[NorthStar]

-- A 'warm' sound is a hot sound but not so hot as to burn.
A 'cool' sound is a cold sound but not so cold as to freeze.

We can have an 'accurate' sound with both 'warm' and 'cool', but just not at the same time.
...Or is it?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Is it possible for a speaker to be accurate and warm at the same time.


Yes its possible , place for example this speaker YG acoustics http://www.stereophile.com/content/...ence-ii-professional-loudspeaker-measurements (which has a exxelent FR) close to a heater

Now serious ,i would say , take a neutral speaker and feed it with a warm tube amp .

There are other magazines that measure , but none does it so through and through as JA stereophile , verified/compared by listening

 

[A.wayne]

Firstly,

You will need an amp that can sink alot of current to make that speaker sing, based on the FR, it will not have a Warm Sound IMO, of course placed on an amp that is not able to sink currents into the 1 ohm range ,could give it a thin sound, step response tells me it is not a time aligned design so seated height position will be critical, Integration or lack of it will be noticable to golden ears, it does have a fairly clean waterfall plot, suggesting good on recording details and free of hash, Excellent micro dynamics ....

Comments are based on the full system .....

 

[andromedaaudio]

Stereophile sums it up quit nicely , and how a LS should be in my opinion , whether the YG is hard to drive is another matter , there are amps made with enough power to make them sing.
If a loudspeaker makes the recording come alive in your soul than its a warm speaker , accuracy is the gateway for that

Lest you get the impression that neutrality is audiospeak for lack of affect, I must note that, while I have no doubt that the YGAs do measure ruler-flat, they are emphatically not what audiophiles like to call clinical. Listening to music through them is not an exercise in "spot the recording flaws" (although you will). In recording after recording, I was impressed by how emotional my response to the music was. On one of the last days before I began writing this review, my wife and I were relaxing in the listening room, reading and idly listening to Ruggiero Ricci's Paganini's Dreams (CD, John Marks Recordings JMR 11, now available from www.ArkivMusic.com—yippie!). Somewhere around Ricci's setting of Chopin's Souvenir de Paganini, we had essentially stopped reading and were listening in slack-jawed wonder at the violinist's gorgeous tone and the power of the music

Note ive never heard a YG speaker unfortunately

 

[NorthStar]

-- "... makes the recording come alive in your soul ..."; that is warmth on the inside. :b

...The "gateway" to audio nirvana (accurate enough for your soul).

 

[A.wayne]

That speaker would be hard to drive IMO , it's 90db/m/2,83v would work out to 85.5db/m/w for comparsion sakes due to it's avg impedance , so yes, I would say big amplfier rules here ....

 

[microstrip]

(...) And accurate? Well if the spaciousness and harmony are on the recording, but are not conveyed by the system, then it is inaccurate. If they are not on the recording and a sense of spaciousness and harmony is created by the system, then it is stillinaccurate. If you like its inaccurate spaciousness and harmony, enjoy.

Tim

Happy to know that you accept that spaciousness and harmony are part of accuracy. It is just where high-end speakers (and systems as an whole) usually can show their best capabilities. And I am addressing those that show the particular spaciousness and harmony of most recordings, not the inaccurately added one you refer. Yes, once you have an adequate system you will find that each recording has its spaciousness, that it is different from others. Although some of them do not have any, usually in well recorded classical recordings usually engineers add spaciousness to multi-mic studio recordings with great success.