Is Justice Anton Scalia Dead/Just heard it on the TV

[DaveC]

The jobs maay come back when the American customers don't have any money to buy their products.

That's happening. 2015 was not a great year for the US market. People are afraid to spend money.

edorr, that's why there should be tariffs to level the playing field but US policy seems intent on allowing countries with lower labor rates to inundate our market with their garbage. Unfortunately, we are stupid enough to buy it or it's gotten to the point where we don't have any other choice. And because our wages are so low and we have so much poverty people don't have the choice to buy anything other than the cheapest $hit available.

Even Hershey's chocolates has had to re-structure their offerings to meet the new market demands... their mid-line products aren't selling very well while more expensive boutique chocolates are doing well, as are the cheapest products.

In Audio it shows as the the decline of the mid market after '08, the high end going ape$hit with ever-increasing prices and ostentatious products, and entry level products doing good as well. There seems to be a big gap in the middle.

 

[edorr]

That's happening. 2015 was not a great year for the US market. People are afraid to spend money.

edorr, that's why there should be tariffs to level the playing field but US policy seems intent on allowing countries with lower labor rates to inundate our market with their garbage. Unfortunately, we are stupid enough to buy it or it's gotten to the point where we don't have any other choice. And because our wages are so low and we have so much poverty people don't have the choice to buy anything other than the cheapest $hit available.

Even Hershey's chocolates has had to re-structure their offerings to meet the new market demands... their mid-line products aren't selling very well while more expensive boutique chocolates are doing well, as are the cheapest products.

In Audio it shows as the the decline of the mid market after '08, the high end going ape$hit with ever-increasing prices and ostentatious products, and entry level products doing good as well. There seems to be a big gap in the middle.

Yes. It is the vanishing middle class. Protectionism or turning back the clock on globalization and international trade will not address this problem, much less reverse. In fact, in my estimation, it will accelerate it (i.e. decline of the US middle class). Trade wars and protectionism historically have always led to economic decline.

 

[DaveC]

Yes. It is the vanishing middle class. Protectionism or turning back the clock on globalization and international trade will not address this problem, much less reverse. In fact, in my estimation, it will accelerate it (i.e. decline of the US middle class). Trade wars and protectionism historically have always led to economic decline.

Than what will? I can't see how returning jobs to the US won't help.

Outsourcing manufacturing is not as easy as some think and there are a lot of issues involved. A lot of manufacturers who have done so regret it. It's a subject I've studied in engineering school, complete with having actual products designed and manufactured in India and China. A project we sent to India was outsourced from India to China and it took their engineers three tries to figure out how to make a bottle opener in a multi-tool work. To say there is incompetence, laziness and greed involved would be an understatement. Apparently "engineer" means you can do basic math in India and China.

 

[Gregadd]

WTO and NAFTA may provide a defense against tarrifs. It woud be nice to see a tarrif agains American comanaies that make products soley for the purpose of export to America. Toyota is moreceoncerned about that. That's not likely with a Republican House of Representatives. it's strange how many foreign ccar companies make cars here just to avoid consumer backlash. That is Toyota,BMW and Merceds appear more concerned about that than Ford and Chevy. At one pointFord was world wide dominant. imagine if all thise cars were made in America.Let's not mention Apple who invests their money in Europe.

 

[DaveC]

Trade wars and protectionism historically have always led to economic decline.

Also, if you want to look at the historical perspective the GOP has financially ruined the USA, starting with Regan.

 

[edorr]

Than what will? I can't see how returning jobs to the US won't help.

Outsourcing manufacturing is not as easy as some think and there are a lot of issues involved. A lot of manufacturers who have done so regret it. It's a subject I've studied in engineering school, complete with having actual products designed and manufactured in India and China. A project we sent to India was outsourced from India to China and it took their engineers three tries to figure out how to make a bottle opener in a multi-tool work. To say there is incompetence, laziness and greed involved would be an understatement. Apparently "engineer" means you can do basic math in India and China.

I work with Indians all the time, and while there are plenty cultural issues, to call them lazy is ridiculous. These guys work around the clock if asked to and have a work ethic Americans can only dream of. My point is while the "work" may come back, the "jobs" won't come back. Won't happen.

 

[edorr]

Also, if you want to look at the historical perspective the GOP has financially ruined the USA, starting with Regan.

The decline of the middle class is the result of the perfect storm of globalization, transition from industrial to knowledge/information economy and Reaganomics (aka as supply side or trickle down economics). Reagan set in motion the forces that accelerated the destruction of the middle class, and the fiscal decline ("deficits don't matter") of the USA.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes. It is the vanishing middle class. Protectionism or turning back the clock on globalization and international trade will not address this problem, much less reverse. In fact, in my estimation, it will accelerate it (i.e. decline of the US middle class). Trade wars and protectionism historically have always led to economic decline.

We trade "freely" with a country that steals our intellectual property and manipulates their currency for global price advantage. A little protectionism is called for. But what would really make a difference is putting the grossly underemployed lower middle class to work re-building the American infrastructure, and the upper middle class to work developing the next generation of energy. Of course to do that you have to spend money on something other than wars, re-building other nations in the wake of wars, subsidizing the interests of an energy sector that should be winding down, and cutting taxes at the top of the food chain. And we won't even get a good start until the self destruction of the radical American conservative movement is complete. Yes, some of this is inevitable, a result of changing technology and an expanding global market. But our response to it has been exactly the wrong thing.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Americans work as hard as anyone or harder. Clearly shown by statistcs. That is not to step on anyone esles work ethic. I am not so concerned about the decline of American economy.Tax cuts specifically capitol gains made it more profitable to invest and lend than to produce.Laissez -faire economics made price gouging legal. Thus the one percent has little incentive to invest.

 

[DaveC]

I work with Indians all the time, and while there are plenty cultural issues, to call them lazy is ridiculous. These guys work around the clock if asked to and have a work ethic Americans can only dream of. My point is while the "work" may come back, the "jobs" won't come back. Won't happen.

The ones I worked with were. In fact, they were slacking so bad we had to get IBM (they made heatsinks for IBM) to tell them to honor the agreement we had with them or IBM would be looking for a new supplier. After that they were far more motivated. But they were lazy enough they took a simple design we wanted and outsourced the project to a Chinese company. They tried to hide it but were so lazy they forwarded us documents with Chinese writing on them. Between the two of them they couldn't even figure out how to make a simple bottle opener work. It was ridiculous. Anyways, there are lots of stories of American companies having issues with outsourcing, from having their IP stolen to just bad engineering and manufacturing. Lots of American companies who wish they never tried to outsource. These jobs never should have been moved overseas and it's certainly within the realm of possibility that many of these jobs come back to the US. A lot of that has to do with US gov't policy, we held multinational corporate interests above the interests of our own citizens.

I also agree Reaganomics was in large part responsible for the financial issues we are having today. Regan was a puppet for corporate interests, hired by a lobbying group consisting of industrial and mining interests to run as their candidate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagebrush_Rebellion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-couldnt-change-federal-land-use-in-the-west/

 

[DaveC]

We trade "freely" with a country that steals our intellectual property and manipulates their currency for global price advantage. A little protectionism is called for. But what would really make a difference is putting the grossly underemployed lower middle class to work re-building the American infrastructure, and the upper middle class to work developing the next generation of energy. Of course to do that you have to spend money on something other than wars, re-building other nations in the wake of wars, subsidizing the interests of an energy sector that should be winding down, and cutting taxes at the top of the food chain. And we won't even get a good start until the self destruction of the radical American conservative movement is complete. Yes, some of this is inevitable, a result of changing technology and an expanding global market. But our response to it has been exactly the wrong thing.

Tim

+1...

 

[spazmatron]

The decline of the middle class is the result of the perfect storm of globalization, transition from industrial to knowledge/information economy and Reaganomics (aka as supply side or trickle down economics). Reagan set in motion the forces that accelerated the destruction of the middle class, and the fiscal decline ("deficits don't matter") of the USA.

+1

 

[edorr]

We trade "freely" with a country that steals our intellectual property and manipulates their currency for global price advantage. A little protectionism is called for.

Tim

Americas status as issuer of the de facto global reserve currency has allowed it to run trillions worth of deficits (cumulatively), financed by the Chinese. What this really means is we are exchanging worthless paper (US debt) for goods and services produced by Chinese workers - the Chinese are the suckers in this game, not the USA. All this whining about Chinese manipulation is a joke.

And we won't even get a good start until the self destruction of the radical American conservative movement is complete. Yes, some of this is inevitable, a result of changing technology and an expanding global market. But our response to it has been exactly the wrong thing.

Tim

Agree

 

[Gregadd]

Americans Work as Hard as Anyone

http://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

 

[edorr]

http://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

Obviously, American workers are getting screwed big time and appear to take a certain pride in this witnessed by the conviction with which they sing their national anthem and say their pledge of allegiance and continue to declare the place the greatest nation on earth. I'm a little puzzled by the statistic though, because I get about 20 days of paid vacation, as do many many other american workers.

 

[Gregadd]

Obviously, American workers are getting screwed big time and appear to take a certain pride in this witnessed by the conviction with which they sing their national anthem and say their pledge of allegiance and continue to declare the place the greatest nation on earth. I'm a little puzzled by the statistic though, because I get about 20 days of paid vacation, as do many many other american workers.

Yeah that confused me too.
The difference is those countries are government mandated.

 

[DaveC]

Obviously, American workers are getting screwed big time and appear to take a certain pride in this witnessed by the conviction with which they sing their national anthem and say their pledge of allegiance and continue to declare the place the greatest nation on earth. I'm a little puzzled by the statistic though, because I get about 20 days of paid vacation, as do many many other american workers.

Yes, but paid vacation is not a legal requirement. Many people have to work for years to get a couple weeks of paid vacation.

The stats for Denmark are wrong, they also get quite a few paid holidays on top of paid vacation leave. Basically, they get about 6 weeks off per year, paid. Workers in the US are guaranteed nothing at all.

 

[BlueFox]

Just be glad you don't work in the high-tech industry. They classify most employees as exempt, which means they expect non-stop work with no overtime. What a scam. Plus you have the constant threat of your job being outsourced. All for greed, i. e., shareholder value.

 

[DaveyF]

Just be glad you don't work in the high-tech industry. They classify most employees as exempt, which means they expect non-stop work with no overtime. What a scam. Plus you have the constant threat of your job being outsourced. All for greed, i. e., shareholder value.

Interesting timing on this topic.. Just yesterday, i received a call from from one of my cohorts. We both work for one of the fortune 50 companies here in the US. She tells me that another friend who has worked for this corp for more than twenty-five years is being let go. Since this corp has had the person on a independant-contractor agreement ( vs an employee, being a independent-contractor is typical for her position) for all of the time that she has worked for the corp, they are able to do the following...1) lay her off with no pension, b) lay her off with no advance notice, 3) give her no reference 4) give her no lay-off benefit or payment-- and all because she is now in her mid seventies and made one minor mistake! The poor woman, who is a friend of mine, will be desolate--particularly since she has just been asked to vacate her rental premises by her landlord since she lost almost of all her savings due to her son's medical emergency; which she had to pay the bulk of the cost for! I was told that the company attorney will insist she leaves the premises next week and to not return....

My point...it's business as usual
.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Just be glad you don't work in the high-tech industry. They classify most employees as exempt, which means they expect non-stop work with no overtime. What a scam. Plus you have the constant threat of your job being outsourced. All for greed, i. e., shareholder value.

This is, IMO, the heart of the problem. The sole objective of the publicly-traded company is ROI. It's not greed, because it's not emotional. And it won't change unless and until we decide that the purpose of the economic system of a democracy is to enable better lives for the people that democracy represents, instead of just creating a good business environment in which to build shareholder equity. And I'm not holding my breath.

Tim