Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, beautiful, just beautiful.
I’d pay good money to watch Valin and Breuninger knock the sh*t out of each other.
As the guy in Robocop said “I’d buy THAT for a dollar!”.
Who says bloodsports aren’t good for the soul?

 

[caesar]

Caesar, beautiful, just beautiful.
I’d pay good money to watch Valin and Breuninger knock the sh*t out of each other.
As the guy in Robocop said “I’d buy THAT for a dollar!”.
Who says bloodsports aren’t good for the soul?

Yes! There is a definite reason why guys take their new dates to a fight

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffy, totally concur. For me, imaging, stage depth, soundstaging, don’t exist in live unamplified, or if they do, more in an emerging bubble of energy, not in the kind of pinpoint detail one hears in uber resolving high end systems.
Dynamics, especially lightning reactive scaling of volume and shards of violent energy from bursts of trumpets etc are never going to be achieved at home.
For me that means trying to realise “natural” warmth, tone density and timbral accuracy in my system at home to mimic what I hear live is my goal, and going as far as I can in capturing a modicum of scary live dynamics, are my limited set of aims.
A two decade journey to SET tubes, full range driver spkrs, accurate non euphonic analog, warm juicy digital, clear calm room acoustics, low noise power and floor-proof vibration isolation, are all conspiring to finally get me there.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tbh Caesar, if “Wankergate” Breuninger and “new SOTA flavour of the month” Valin turned up in the ring, all the women would demand their money back LOL.

 

[853guy]

Jeffy, totally concur. For me, imaging, stage depth, soundstaging, don’t exist in live unamplified, or if they do, more in an emerging bubble of energy, not in the kind of pinpoint detail one hears in uber resolving high end systems.

Hi Spirit,

Imaging, stage depth, and sound-staging all exist in live unamplified music. They just aren't captured/perceived by our ear/brain mechanism in the same way mics (can) capture them. Our ear/brain mechanism may look fundamentally similar to the mic/medium recording mechanism, but the processes employed by each are vastly different.

A mic capsule will obviously vary in size, shape, sensitivity, frequency response and polar response, further dependent upon the mic-pre its connected to, and proximity to the source. "Pinpoint detail" is less the result of "uber resolving high end systems" than it is of mic choice, configuration and placement. Generally, the smaller the mic capsule, the more "pinpoint the imaging", though as always, there are exceptions to the rule (mic polar response alone will change the way the mic captures placement of instruments in the horizontal plane).

Again, comparing two incomparable events, one of which is live and perceived directly by the perceiver's ear/brain mechanism, and one which is captured by a microphone and turned into electricity as soon as it hits the mic's capsule, and then stored in a medium, seems to have limited utility value.

Best!

853guy

 

[spiritofmusic]

853, when Ra gets pissed off w this hobby, she often says I’m of “limited utility value” LOL.
That’s my cue to stop listening, and chop a few more logs for the wood burner.
The chapel here certainly doesn’t heat itself.

 

[DaveC]

Jeffy, totally concur. For me, imaging, stage depth, soundstaging, don’t exist in live unamplified, or if they do, more in an emerging bubble of energy, not in the kind of pinpoint detail one hears in uber resolving high end systems.
Dynamics, especially lightning reactive scaling of volume and shards of violent energy from bursts of trumpets etc are never going to be achieved at home.
For me that means trying to realise “natural” warmth, tone density and timbral accuracy in my system at home to mimic what I hear live is my goal, and going as far as I can in capturing a modicum of scary live dynamics, are my limited set of aims.
A two decade journey to SET tubes, full range driver spkrs, accurate non euphonic analog, warm juicy digital, clear calm room acoustics, low noise power and floor-proof vibration isolation, are all conspiring to finally get me there.

I don't think you can generalize like that. It totally depends on the music, the hall and where you are sitting.

Then, there is the recording... the intent is NOT to always sound like you're in the middle to back of the hall, the perspective is most often intentionally front row with close-miked parts added to capture more detail. Is this natural? Well, it's not the way you hear it sitting in the middle of the hall, but it's not meant to be, it's meant to be played back at home on a stereo system.

If you're going to compare live to recorded it needs to be an attempt by the recording artist to actually capture the live sound you'd hear at a certain place in the hall. Some simple 2-mic recordings do, imo, achieve this to one level or another, and with simpler music it can actually come out sounding very realistic.

The dynamics from trumpets can be reproduced very realistically as well, if you don't think so you haven't heard the right horn system.

 

[caesar]

Tbh Caesar, if “Wankergate” Breuninger and “new SOTA flavour of the month” Valin turned up in the ring, all the women would demand their money back LOL.

JAJAJAJAJAJA!!!!!!!

Not sure I am familiar with the Wankergate scandal... I am afraid to ask... but is it digitally captured?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, which cave have you been living in all these years?
The infamous incident where forum fellows disagreed w Sir Peter’s findings online, indeed took him to task. He called us all wankers, took his toys from the WBF safe play zone, and formed his own kindergarden/early years learning centre forum.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, which cave have you been living in all these years?
The infamous incident where forum fellows disagreed w Sir Peter’s findings online, indeed took him to task. He called us all wankers, took his toys from the WBF safe play zone, and formed his own kindergarden/early years learning centre forum.

Thanks! Sorry, I missed that one... I get busy at times and don't read many of the threads...

 

[caesar]

Back to the root cause... for the most part, unfortunately, many lack an understanding of subjectivity...this is especially true for "audio journalists" who abuse subjectivity for their own purposes and gains

 

[RogerD]

I bet you could if you were being driven in the back of a rolls Roger Heck I might even appreciate grey poupon!

In the back of a Rolls....rollin and rockin to Ten Years After...I do like Grey Poupon!

 

[Jeffy]

Don't agree, as I have sat many times front row center in concert halls and have not heard an image yet. I go to live jazz clubs and still don't hear an image.

 

[DaveC]

I go to live jazz clubs and still don't hear an image.

How is that possible? If you're sitting close to the performer you still can't tell where the sound is coming from? I find this impossible to believe short of some rare medical condition.

 

[Al M.]

How is that possible? If you're sitting close to the performer you still can't tell where the sound is coming from? I find this impossible to believe short of some rare medical condition.

I went to a concert with fellow WBF members yesterday featuring Brahms violin sonatas played in a large living room. With eyes closed I could precisely locate both violin and piano. And the image of the violin wasn't large either, in fact it was quite small.

 

[Jeffy]

Of course you can tell where they are coming from, but no precise imaging like a speaker. The piano, sax, drums, vibes all come in the same general area; not pinpoint that drum is in front and piano is back so on.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jeffy, I’m w you on this.
I reckon if DaveC can pinpoint relationships of all the instruments w his eyes closed in the width and depth planes, it’s him who has the rare medical condition

 

[cjfrbw]

If you can't hear the mice skittering around under the conductor's podium, I feel sorry for you and your stereo system.

 

[Folsom]

Don't agree, as I have sat many times front row center in concert halls and have not heard an image yet. I go to live jazz clubs and still don't hear an image.

I know what you mean.

Although I'd say there is one, just not pin point. You can hear the general direction where instruments are at, but never the "shape" of the instrument or anything like that. You don't really know whether something is more forward or back unless it's a long ways.

But the character of the instruments is so very strong. The texture & timbre that LUM provides does special things for a person. The dynamics are intense in just the right way (if the band is good at that, sometimes they suck and so it sucks).

That being said, I think that if someone wants that pin point imaging and all of that... well it is another form of stimulus so I don't think it's wrong, just not my personal cup of tea. In general devices that increase RF Enoise enhance those factors a lot, such an Entreq. It doesn't make it sound more live, but it can add a lot to the stimulation for he listeners.

It's probably problematic that microphones can pick up such low level sound, especially by proximity, in a sense because it doesn't sound like what we hear LUM. But then again lots of people like it. Either way it ends up as part of the overall experience for any type of stereo, legit or not.

 

[spiritofmusic]

CJ, I want to hear the conductor muttering under his breath, likely comments such as “I wish I was at a Taylor Swift gig, rather than having to deal w First Violin tonight”. Now THAT would be low level detail resolution.