JRiver MC Version 18

[jkeny]

Yes. It seems that you are thinking jitter only comes out if you feed it J-test signal. If that were the case, it would never show up with music since music never mimics what J-test does! J-test is a square wave with one bit of it toggling. The square wave once it goes through the low pass filter of the DAC becomes a pure sine wave with that very low level toggling embedded in it. If a DAC has jitter, it will show up there as it would show up if you were to feed it a single tone sine wave. What doesn't show up without S/PDIF is the link, i.e. S/PDIF, aggravating because of embedded clock in S/PDIF channel.

No, I don't think jitter only comes from exercising it - seeing as you fail to read what I said or misunderstand it - let's see what Julian Dunn, the developer of the J-test has to say - he calls it a DATA Jitter Test Signal

Data Jitter Test Signal (J-test Signal): A test signal has been developed in order to stimulate worst-case levels of data-jitter. This signal has two components. The first is an un-dithered square wave with a period of 4 samples...........
The effect of data jitter on following equipment depends on their circuit design. Some clock recovery circuits use data transitions throughout the sample frame to derive a timing reference so coupling data jitter to the output.

As I said already, J-Test is used to stress a particular aspect of the SPDIF transmission protocol & it's receiving/ecovery circuitry. It is not designed as a general purpose jitter test.
You yourself have said the same in relation to ASRC tests

Here is the kicker. Once you have such a circuit, you no longer can test it using jitter test. His J-Test signal he used is not appropriate to detect errors in this circuit. Special tests need to be used based on knowing the design of the sample rate conversion circuit to detect its flaws.

Oh, & btw, we don't know if Archimago is using the TEAC's upconverting (ASRC) of the input stream in his tests - he simply doesn't mention it

In this scenario, we are not interested in what the cable or S/PDIF is doing. We are interested to see if the source induces jitter into the down stream DAC. The use of J-Test here has a superfluous low-order bit toggling. That's all. Otherwise, we have a high frequency tone which is a hard test with respect to jitter.

Now, if we were testing quality of the USB connection then yes, maybe there is a worst case signal for that. But no one has invented one and at any rate, per above is not something we are trying to test.

That's my point - he has decided to test for something that is nothing to do with where differences might be found - as you said above "His J-Test signal he used is not appropriate to detect errors in this circuit"

PLL is not part of the transmission. It is a subfunction of a receiver in order to deal with upstream artifacts caused by the cable or the source. J-Test is designed around what we know the cable can do to digital stream. We have no idea how the downstream PLL is designed as to create a worst case signal for that. As I explained above, if the goal was to agitate down stream devices, a different signal may do better but that is not the goal here. The goal here is to figure out if we just change the source, what happens. In this case, nothing did! .

I would direct you to read what J Dunn's wrote about the J-Test & what it stresses & tests.

 

[jkeny]

.....
Oh, for the purposes of settling this argument, for sure. Now, personally I don't use PCs for analysis as he is doing. I rather use calibrated instruments. But for this purposes, he added a wealth of data to the discussion which just so happens, matches my knowledge of what should have happened. So I see no reason to doubt his conclusions.

Do you want to put forward a set of measurements that show any difference?

I see that you are not using your usual critical facilities to analyse his tests because they concur with your own tests.
Your final statement reads to me that we should settle for flawed/inappropriate tests because we don't have anything better.

 

[FrantzM]

Jkenny


What is the difference between data-jitter and general jitter. My understanding was that what is being carried is data. Within SPDIF we are dealing with data after all so what am I missing?

 

[jkeny]

Jkenny

What is the difference between data-jitter and general jitter. My understanding was that what is being carried is data. Within SPDIF we are dealing with data after all so what am I missing?

Frantz, jitter can arise from many extrinsic & intrinsic sources - data jitter is one of the intrinsic sources that arises when the SPDIF handling circuitry is not able to fully cope with certain combinations of data in the SPDIF stream. The J-test signal specifically targets this weakness & exposes it. If we were to use an ordinary Sine wave or music as the source we would be hard pressed to spot this data induced jitter. Similarly, we might conclude that unless specific tests were used to uncover differences in Archimago's testing regime then the likelihood of finding differences would be infinitesimal.

It's the old story of the man searching for his car keys under the light of a street lamp even though he dropped them 50 yards away!!

 

[jriver]

jkeny,
For someone who finds JRiver at least somewhat inferior, you are certainly spending a lot of time in this JRiver thread. Maybe you could find another place to express yourself. You've made your point.

 

[steve williams]

I completely agree

Time for you to move on John

 

[Clive]

If Jriver take down their page on Jplay being a hoax then I expect a lot of these discussions would calm down. It's Jriver's position which fundamentally causing the issue. If the latest version of Jriver doesn't make the redirect then we need to know. There's been a couple of reports that it might not redirect anymore. Can anyone confirm?

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz, jitter can arise from many extrinsic & intrinsic sources - data jitter is one of the intrinsic sources that arises when the SPDIF handling circuitry is not able to fully cope with certain combinations of data in the SPDIF stream. The J-test signal specifically targets this weakness & exposes it. If we were to use an ordinary Sine wave or music as the source we would be hard pressed to spot this data induced jitter. Similarly, we might conclude that unless specific tests were used to uncover differences in Archimago's testing regime then the likelihood of finding differences would be infinitesimal.

It's the old story of the man searching for his car keys under the light of a street lamp even though he dropped them 50 yards away!!

Not sure I get or your point nor do I agree with you... Let's move on . i will continue to use Jriver sans Jplay. I'm not convinced of the latter efficaciousness ... Ymmv. It's all good

 

[jkeny]

I've been asked by Steve not to post anymore on Jriver & to disclose any affiliation I have with Jplay.
Yes, I evaluated lots of playback software & found Jplay to sound the best that I heard. As a result I support their efforts & offer [...] Jplay [for sale].
I hope this clarifies my position?

Mod Edit: It does now with my edit. Disclosure of commercial interest is not an invitation to advertise for it. I removed that aspect of your post.

 

[jriver]

Thanks, Amir.

Clive, you have also made your position well known, and I expect you will continue to do so but why not share the love somewhere else?

 

[jriver]

Yes, I evaluated lots of playback software & found Jplay to sound the best that I heard. As a result I support their efforts & offer [...] Jplay [for sale].
I hope this clarifies my position?

Does this mean you are a dealer for them?

 

[steve williams]

so just to recap and to stay on topic, this was the original post in this thread........

JRiver MC Version 18
What would be the new added features in the version 18?

Just upgraded to 18 from 17 in hopes there will be enhanced DSD over USB features.


with that said can we please stay on topic.

Any and all other topics can be discussed in new threads

 

[jkeny]

Does this mean you are a dealer for them?

No, it doesn't - I don't sell JPlay! Why, are you interested in offering me a dealership for JRiver?

Sorry, Steve, but I had to answer a direct question put to me - I'm sure you understand

 

[steve williams]

Thanks to both but again, unless there is any new information regarding the OP any of the banter is unnecessary and will result in the thread being closed

 

[jriver]

so just to recap and to stay on topic, this was the original post in this thread........

JRiver MC Version 18
What would be the new added features in the version 18?

Just upgraded to 18 from 17 in hopes there will be enhanced DSD over USB features.

Here is the new feature list for JRiver Media Center 18.0 (MC18):
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74442.0

One of the most important new developments is our new Mac version. Here's the FAQ:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78389.0

 

[Ron Party]

Here is the new feature list for JRiver Media Center 18.0 (MC18):
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74442.0

One of the most important new developments is our new Mac version. Here's the FAQ:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78389.0

I see that amongst the upgrades in Version 18 is improved/enhanced playback of SACD ISOs. I haven't searched through any wikis or forum threads but could I ask any users and or Mr. JRiver himself if there is a step-by-step guide to configuring the software for such playback?

I am and have been a jriver user for several years now and I find it to be an extraordinarily fantastic piece of software, one of my absolute favorites. It is a joy to use and has a GUI that I find stands out way ahead of the crowd.

(OT: I have been following this thread with great interest. Amir, thank you for your usual great insight and bringing of reliable data to the table. This data is indisputable and rises above the Audiophile and self-serving chatter. I for one will pass on the jplay unless and until one can bring some reliable, credible, and repeatable data to justify its existence. Once again, Amir, great job.)

 

[jriver]

This should help you set up DSD playback:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

 

[Ron Party]

I can't tell from that wiki if jriver supports SACD iso playback (or, for that matter, DVDA iso playback). At the bottom of the wiki page there is a link to this thread which contains a bit of discussion back in 2012 about SACD iso playback not being supported as well as some discussion about SACD_extract to get the DSD files from the ISO. Apologies in advance, but I remain confused.

 

[amirm]

Since this thread is about Jriver. I would like to talk a little bit about a feature I recently discovered, although it's not new.

Last.fm is a great way to discover new music. You can switch between your own library and the last.fm radio suggested music. You can submit your music via scrobble to last.fm so it knows what your preferences are. It's really sweet. The sound quality is only 128kbs but its still a really simple way to discover new tunes without straying far from your own library; no need to setup output device.

You can sign up with last.fm via Jriver. You just click the player drop down, and then play last.fm radio. It will ask you to sign up and authorize last.fm to access your jriver. It's all self contained inside jriver; super easy way to discover new music. $3 per month for unlimited, unobtrusive and fun streaming without commercials; a pittance, IMO.

Anyone else last.fm'd?

Not with Jriver but I tried it a year or two ago and liked what I heard. But for some reason, have not gone back to it .

 

[Lee]

I'm curious how the JRiver player will be on the Mac.