..nor anything mfd by SR
nor anything that the vast majority of audiophiles can afford. It's all about the uber expensive. Maybe that's what Tier One means.
Just an observation
- Thread starter Joe Galbraith
- Start date
nor anything that the vast majority of audiophiles can afford. It's all about the uber expensive. Maybe that's what Tier One means.
I've experienced my share of negative comments when I've posted about things that made an improvement in my system.
I've was even called a "company shill" fan boy, and worse because I dared say that something that can't make a difference, did make a difference.
To be specific, was my experience with upgraded fuses.
All the while I was stating it made a difference to my ears in my system.
I was asked of course to provide scientific proof, and of course my ears were just playing tricks on me.
Maybe I had to justify my expense., I was just fooling myself.
I never said at any time that it should or would do the same in another set up.
I never said they were dummies for not trying it, but of course I was dummy for buying into such snake oil.
I even offered to send a fuse out free of charge, but there were no takers.
So where am I heading?
How about a forum set up specifically for all the "doubters".
They could rant amongst themselves all they want and call the rest of us who delve into the black arts of tweakdom anything they wish, and we would never be the wiser.
Because, of course, we would never venture over to that side.
And tit for tat, they wouldn't feel the need to venture over to our side.
Hence, no more arguments.
Fat chance of that.
I've was even called a "company shill" fan boy, and worse because I dared say that something that can't make a difference, did make a difference.
To be specific, was my experience with upgraded fuses.
All the while I was stating it made a difference to my ears in my system.
I was asked of course to provide scientific proof, and of course my ears were just playing tricks on me.
Maybe I had to justify my expense., I was just fooling myself.
I never said at any time that it should or would do the same in another set up.
I never said they were dummies for not trying it, but of course I was dummy for buying into such snake oil.
I even offered to send a fuse out free of charge, but there were no takers.
So where am I heading?
How about a forum set up specifically for all the "doubters".
They could rant amongst themselves all they want and call the rest of us who delve into the black arts of tweakdom anything they wish, and we would never be the wiser.
Because, of course, we would never venture over to that side.
And tit for tat, they wouldn't feel the need to venture over to our side.
Hence, no more arguments.
Fat chance of that.
To be fair...I have high end fuses in some of my components. I bought them for their added build quality and apparent quality control (hopefully). They are so cheap relative to my sound system, that I will take other people's word they sound better. I have never gone through the effort of pulling fuses and turning off components for the sake of an a/b tortured comparison.
Chuck, breaking down into even smaller and smaller tribes where everyone always agrees is BORING and frankly the wrong way to go. We should feel free to engage with people who feel differently than we do. Be able to support your opinions, engage, attempt to persuade. The key is to do so respectfully and not feel as though you are being attacked just because someone doesn't agree. Even if you start your own group, fractions will develop within it. That is how people seem to work.
Reasoned and vigorous debate is to be welcomed because that is how advances happen.
Equally, different people have different tastes and we should recognise that.
I am also quite happy to see maverick views even if their validity is at times qustionable.
What I have no time for is sustained dogmatism and those who simply ignore other members' experience and on at least one recent experience to the extent of clear hypocrisy.
If someone prefers super clean sterile musical reproduction so be it that is their preference. I want sound that communicates emotion and feeling and I don't want somebody telling me that that is inferior because it does not measure as well as that from other components.
Musical enjoyment is at heart about feelings and emotion not measurements of dubious value.
Equally, different people have different tastes and we should recognise that.
I am also quite happy to see maverick views even if their validity is at times qustionable.
What I have no time for is sustained dogmatism and those who simply ignore other members' experience and on at least one recent experience to the extent of clear hypocrisy.
If someone prefers super clean sterile musical reproduction so be it that is their preference. I want sound that communicates emotion and feeling and I don't want somebody telling me that that is inferior because it does not measure as well as that from other components.
Musical enjoyment is at heart about feelings and emotion not measurements of dubious value.
I thought it would be obvious that my tongue was in my cheek.
It's human nature to question opinions or stated observations that are different from one's own.
The only unfortunate aspect of such encounters is that only one side most always has a hands on experience.
To me it seemed like a one sided argument, that never should have been an argument in the first place.
If there is an issue with someone stating that a fuse for example made an improvement, then the only way to effectively argue the point is to try it out for yourself.
Then you can either agree or disagree.
But it's just pointless.
The fuse worked in one instance in one system and in another case it may not.
It's a draw.
It doesn't prove that all upgraded fuses are snake oil or that they will work the same wonders in every system.
That's the beauty and diversity of this hobby.
It's the variables.
Let alone what one's pre- conceived ideas are about what constitutes great sound from mediocre sound.
Many people believe that their system is as good as it can ever get.
Others ,myself included, are curious.
"I wonder if ERS cloth will make a difference?"
What would one QV2 sound like in my system? Would another one make a difference?
I am happy to say that I answered those questions for myself, and happy that they did things for my system that I didn't think they would.
I was a bit of a sceptic. I was hesitant.
I researched the stuff, and found pros and cons regarding both.
Lots of snake oil comments.
Lots of positive comments.
So what else is there to do but give them a try.
I would do the science , do the experiment, and decide for myself.
I can't see any harm in voicing positive findings.
And everyone has the same right to state that it just didn't work for them.
But proclaiming to know that such things can't work,or demanding scientific proof of why they work without ever experiencing the item,just doesn't sit right with me.
In fact , sometimes the remarks that fly your way are more than abusive.
I can't understand all the concern over what someone has spent on something that "just can't make a difference."
Why should that matter to anyone but the purchaser?
No one is asking for a loan of cash to fund the purchase and no one is demanding that you must buy one.
No need to beg borrow or steal.
There's no elite old boy's club.
No exclusivity.
The audio community when I started out forty years ago was all about sharing the little tips and secrets that one discovered that made an improvement in their sound.
Some of those "things that shouldn't make a difference" have now been accepted as essentials and not just accessories.
I know some still believe that 18 gauge lamp cord is all you need, but I think there are more folks who believe otherwise.
There was a time when it was the other way around.
I have yet to figure out why some feel the need to protect the "feeble minded audiofools" from parting with the money that they earned and have every right to spend on whatever they want to spend it on.
Surely there must be some reason for it.
What I do know is that I seldom see any of the "other side",suggest things that can improve a system.
Negativity reigns supreme.
If there's any "elitism" in audio, it appears to be an elitism of those who just know things that we feeble minded folks can't fathom.
One can conclude that they must posses the perfect system.One that is immune to anything making claims to improve upon it's performance.
But I don't really think that's the case.
What I can say is that limited exposure to systems that nail it,can lead to a mind set that "mine is as good as it gets".
I've felt that way myself.
What changed my mind was exposure to a friend's system that was much better than mine, and then hearing it change to an even better system just by improving the electrical delivery to it.
That opened my mind to the possibility that it may not be all snake oil.
That some of this stuff does make an improvement.
Others would say that was a Pandora moment.
That it took me down the slippery slope of expensive power conditioners, power cords, designer fuses and who knows what ever type of fairy dust I may spend my money on in the future.
Well I am glad to say that all the preaching to avoid all of the above didn't phase on me.
I was never given any scientific proof of why those things shouldn't make a difference.
But I wasn't looking for any proof one way or the other.
I just wanted better sound.
I think I am on the right track.
No one can convince me that I'm not.
Now I have friends who marvel at how much better my system sounds and ask me" what did you do?"
And I am only too happy to inform them.
Isn't that what it should be all about?
It's human nature to question opinions or stated observations that are different from one's own.
The only unfortunate aspect of such encounters is that only one side most always has a hands on experience.
To me it seemed like a one sided argument, that never should have been an argument in the first place.
If there is an issue with someone stating that a fuse for example made an improvement, then the only way to effectively argue the point is to try it out for yourself.
Then you can either agree or disagree.
But it's just pointless.
The fuse worked in one instance in one system and in another case it may not.
It's a draw.
It doesn't prove that all upgraded fuses are snake oil or that they will work the same wonders in every system.
That's the beauty and diversity of this hobby.
It's the variables.
Let alone what one's pre- conceived ideas are about what constitutes great sound from mediocre sound.
Many people believe that their system is as good as it can ever get.
Others ,myself included, are curious.
"I wonder if ERS cloth will make a difference?"
What would one QV2 sound like in my system? Would another one make a difference?
I am happy to say that I answered those questions for myself, and happy that they did things for my system that I didn't think they would.
I was a bit of a sceptic. I was hesitant.
I researched the stuff, and found pros and cons regarding both.
Lots of snake oil comments.
Lots of positive comments.
So what else is there to do but give them a try.
I would do the science , do the experiment, and decide for myself.
I can't see any harm in voicing positive findings.
And everyone has the same right to state that it just didn't work for them.
But proclaiming to know that such things can't work,or demanding scientific proof of why they work without ever experiencing the item,just doesn't sit right with me.
In fact , sometimes the remarks that fly your way are more than abusive.
I can't understand all the concern over what someone has spent on something that "just can't make a difference."
Why should that matter to anyone but the purchaser?
No one is asking for a loan of cash to fund the purchase and no one is demanding that you must buy one.
No need to beg borrow or steal.
There's no elite old boy's club.
No exclusivity.
The audio community when I started out forty years ago was all about sharing the little tips and secrets that one discovered that made an improvement in their sound.
Some of those "things that shouldn't make a difference" have now been accepted as essentials and not just accessories.
I know some still believe that 18 gauge lamp cord is all you need, but I think there are more folks who believe otherwise.
There was a time when it was the other way around.
I have yet to figure out why some feel the need to protect the "feeble minded audiofools" from parting with the money that they earned and have every right to spend on whatever they want to spend it on.
Surely there must be some reason for it.
What I do know is that I seldom see any of the "other side",suggest things that can improve a system.
Negativity reigns supreme.
If there's any "elitism" in audio, it appears to be an elitism of those who just know things that we feeble minded folks can't fathom.
One can conclude that they must posses the perfect system.One that is immune to anything making claims to improve upon it's performance.
But I don't really think that's the case.
What I can say is that limited exposure to systems that nail it,can lead to a mind set that "mine is as good as it gets".
I've felt that way myself.
What changed my mind was exposure to a friend's system that was much better than mine, and then hearing it change to an even better system just by improving the electrical delivery to it.
That opened my mind to the possibility that it may not be all snake oil.
That some of this stuff does make an improvement.
Others would say that was a Pandora moment.
That it took me down the slippery slope of expensive power conditioners, power cords, designer fuses and who knows what ever type of fairy dust I may spend my money on in the future.
Well I am glad to say that all the preaching to avoid all of the above didn't phase on me.
I was never given any scientific proof of why those things shouldn't make a difference.
But I wasn't looking for any proof one way or the other.
I just wanted better sound.
I think I am on the right track.
No one can convince me that I'm not.
Now I have friends who marvel at how much better my system sounds and ask me" what did you do?"
And I am only too happy to inform them.
Isn't that what it should be all about?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Well put Chuck
Here's a funny little story that happened just yesterday. My friends and I had our joint birthday celebration last night. Along with that a celebration for our "gang" being ogether for 30 years. So we closed down a club, a "Disco" for you guys from the 70's, and had it there. Within our gang are four former DJs, guys of which one is a VP at a big international investment house, a CTO, an Orthopedic Surgeon and a former Congressman. Gone are the days of turntables and a mixer. In this digital age DJ front ends vary so widely it's crazy. As such we did not use the house's front end. My USB sourced Ethernet linked system served as the core, which CTO slaved to his PC/Traktor, one stereo channel input for the output of Doc's MAC DJ3 controller and one input for Banker's Mac Pioneer X controller. Before Doc and Banker got there, CTO and I configured the core platform. Everything sounded terrible! Bad with a capital B! Sounded like the house EQ was set in the dreaded V EQ pattern.
I'd been to this place before it did not sound like that. Anyway non-audiophile CTO was finding calibration errors and on a whim asked to try the house RCA cables instead of mine. The house cables are generic cables. Mine while not fancy nor expensive cables that pass with flying colors for both square wave and null tests on youtube by the manufacturer. Well, the errors didn't stop (it turned out his Audio 4 box was expecting to see the 1v output of a phonostage instead of the 2v linestage) but suddenly the sound turned into no longer a V but rather a downward slope. Still not ideal but a whole lot better.
The house system was voiced with their front end. EQ's in that way because of a few dull sounding cables. The insertion of a measly total of 4 meters of tonally flat cables wrecked everything. I guess the moral of the story is that we shouldn't be so focused on individual components when searching for good sound. The quicker we take on a system mindset the quicker we will get results.
Here's a funny little story that happened just yesterday. My friends and I had our joint birthday celebration last night. Along with that a celebration for our "gang" being ogether for 30 years. So we closed down a club, a "Disco" for you guys from the 70's
, and had it there. Within our gang are four former DJs, guys of which one is a VP at a big international investment house, a CTO, an Orthopedic Surgeon and a former Congressman. Gone are the days of turntables and a mixer. In this digital age DJ front ends vary so widely it's crazy. As such we did not use the house's front end. My USB sourced Ethernet linked system served as the core, which CTO slaved to his PC/Traktor, one stereo channel input for the output of Doc's MAC DJ3 controller and one input for Banker's Mac Pioneer X controller. Before Doc and Banker got there, CTO and I configured the core platform. Everything sounded terrible! Bad with a capital B! Sounded like the house EQ was set in the dreaded V EQ pattern.I'd been to this place before it did not sound like that. Anyway non-audiophile CTO was finding calibration errors and on a whim asked to try the house RCA cables instead of mine. The house cables are generic cables. Mine while not fancy nor expensive cables that pass with flying colors for both square wave and null tests on youtube by the manufacturer. Well, the errors didn't stop (it turned out his Audio 4 box was expecting to see the 1v output of a phonostage instead of the 2v linestage) but suddenly the sound turned into no longer a V but rather a downward slope. Still not ideal but a whole lot better.
The house system was voiced with their front end. EQ's in that way because of a few dull sounding cables. The insertion of a measly total of 4 meters of tonally flat cables wrecked everything. I guess the moral of the story is that we shouldn't be so focused on individual components when searching for good sound. The quicker we take on a system mindset the quicker we will get results.
Joe, I agree with the general sentiment of your thread. In these "times," people are getting more and more brittle and angry and use the internet to vent (in relative anonymity). My quibble with the Gon is simply over oftentimes one sided censorship. Here is a email response from them to a manufacturer (who does not pay for ad space) in response to out and out defamation (someone was calling his company thieves and liars:
If this company paid for advertising, negative posts of any sort would be scrubbed instantly. Furthermore, I and others have posted non-inflammatory things that have been censured simply for being an intellectual challenge to a manufacture who pays for ad space. At the end of the day, it is a business, and I get that part, but all the tools flaming people on Augdiogon are free to do so as long it does not involve a paying member. To me, this makes the site irrelevant of and little use....
Agree with you whole-heartedly. Overly sensitive PC censorship (I think that is an appropriate use of the word here) is as bad as the unregulated wild west shoot-em-ups
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