I have been using the AYRE KXR preamp for my Lamm ML2.1 amp. I recently tried the Lamm LL2.1 tube preamp and wad floored at how much more musical my system sounds now. Pianos sounded like pianos. Voice had the mid range magic. One of those great moments where a 7k box beats a 20k box. Now that i realize synergy and tube preamp - i wanted to test the ARC Ref 3 or 5 - anyone experienced this combo and any ideas about the difference between ARC and Lamm preamps on this system?
lamm ll2.1 or ARC ref 3 or 5? for my ML 2.1 amp lamm
- Thread starter DavidinSF
- Start date
If you look at my signature below, you'll guess exactly what I think 
Despite all its awards and rave reviews the LL2 series is still IMO greatly underrated. Greatly. Just have to live without a remote and be limited to 3 inputs.
Despite all its awards and rave reviews the LL2 series is still IMO greatly underrated. Greatly. Just have to live without a remote and be limited to 3 inputs.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I used an ARC Ref 3 Mk ll with a Lamm ML 2.1 several years ago which I thought was wonderful.....until I switched to the Lamm LL1 Signature preamp with my now Lamm ML3 and for me there is just no turning back They just perform so well together but of course my signature will also show some bias. I can live without a remote as my gear is so close to where I sit
Although I own Audio Research gear and I love my Ref Anniversary preamplifier my advice is always the same - if you like the amplifier stick with the preamplifier of the same brand and class of your amplifier. Sound quality will be maximized that way, unless you want to use the preamplifier to address some specific deficiencies or requirements of the other components of your system.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Good luck with your pre search, it's a minefield. I was shocked at preconceptions wiped away after a pre shootout here over the summer.
We had a stellar cast, Robert Koda, Shindo, ANUK, ARC Ref and more. What was most surprising to me was how differently each portrayed the music, in my system for example the ARC and ANUK were more forward, not led by the high freq, more the sounstage took some steps forward to the point where the plane of the soundstage was in front of the speakers. Bass was deeper and more powerful and the presentation suited some styles of music, for me though I lost the intimacy I like in some of the music I listen to. This was not at all what I'd expected and at odds with what I'd heard from this kit in other systems.
It hugely reinforced the importance of listening to kit in one's own system/room and finding a synergy that suits the balance of one's preference.
Sounds like you're on the right track, best of luck
We had a stellar cast, Robert Koda, Shindo, ANUK, ARC Ref and more. What was most surprising to me was how differently each portrayed the music, in my system for example the ARC and ANUK were more forward, not led by the high freq, more the sounstage took some steps forward to the point where the plane of the soundstage was in front of the speakers. Bass was deeper and more powerful and the presentation suited some styles of music, for me though I lost the intimacy I like in some of the music I listen to. This was not at all what I'd expected and at odds with what I'd heard from this kit in other systems.
It hugely reinforced the importance of listening to kit in one's own system/room and finding a synergy that suits the balance of one's preference.
Sounds like you're on the right track, best of luck
Wow...quite a shoot-out you had there...any more comments you can share? Particularly in relation to ANUK or Robert Koda? I have some experience with ARC, Shindo and Kondo but not ANUK or Robert Koda. Thanks!!!
Hi David,
I use the Concert Fidelity LSX-080 version 2, with my Lamm ML2.1's. Its a great match and I preffered the transparency over the Lamm pre. It also has 4 inputs and a remote. They do come up on the used market at a decent price from time to time, and hence worth the wait.
Neville
I use the Concert Fidelity LSX-080 version 2, with my Lamm ML2.1's. Its a great match and I preffered the transparency over the Lamm pre. It also has 4 inputs and a remote. They do come up on the used market at a decent price from time to time, and hence worth the wait.
Neville
I have Lamm M2.2. I was using L2 Reference pre for a long time and really like the combination but lack of remote control was a hazzle. I also filled up the 3 inputs quickly and was needing a 4th (not anymore). Anyhow, I switched to CJ GAT with really good result. Lamm is a bit more laid back, CJ is more dynamic, more punch, excellent detail, yet remain rich and smooth. Lamm is a bit on the fatter, slower side. Your can fine tune the tonal balance of GAT with various 6922 quite a bit but I did not notice much change with Lamm pre with tube rolling (not that there were many choices for tubes that Lamm uses). If number of inputs and lack of remote is not an issue, I would be perfectly happy with either, may be with a slight edge to CJ. I had ARC Ref3 in my system for awhile before switching to Lamm and I was not all that impressed. I only heard Ref5 and Anniversary pre in a different system so it is more difficult to judge but as a whole, I am not a big fan of ARC house sound.
Hi LL21
Hopefully you'll see attached an end of the day pic of most of the pre's to hand.
Three of the pre's had a similar signature in my system. The ANUK M5, Puresound L300 & Audio Research Ref3se (I'm told this Ref 3 was part of a last production of 25 Ref3's that included parts destined for the Ref5). I had previously had most experience of the Ref3, it'd made a big impression replacing a Modwright in the owners system. That system in a treated and dedicated space is a favourite of mine. The sense of space and definiton of instruments in a large but not out of proportion soundstage is special. I thought the pre might bring a sense of this to my system but it didn't. It delivered greater weight and detail but as I said in the last post lacked somewhat in terms of intimacy and top to bottom frequency balance on some material as compared to what I'm used to. The ANUK M5 had a very similar presentation which it's owner enjoyed very much in my system, the Puresound was also similar but the general consensus on the day from those I spoke to was it's slight lack of cohesive musicality. It delivered in a similar way to the ARC and ANUK in terms of weight and detial but didn't draw one in to the music, I had the unit for around a month and that was my overriding impression. It was noisier than the others in my system and there was a suggestion that the tubes may have been past their best.
The Shindo Vosne Romanee and Robert Koda were different beasts as compared to the others on the day. The Shindo sounded quiet beautiful, in fact Nick Cave from A Boatman Calls was delivered in a silky way that just drew one into the music, stunning, though possible not quiet as neutral as some. The unit we had was nearly new and due some break in, some felt (not me) that it was lacking in bass weight, I'm sure the sound may have filled out with use. Having had some experience of the Kondo M7 it seemed to me to be cut from a similar cloth only more so. Anyone who enjoys the M7 and were thinking of upgrading would do well to look in this direction. I think everyone was impressed with the Robert Koda, in a word, neutrality. For me it took what my pre does and raised the bar delivering the greater weight of the ARC et all without the change in perspective. It was very persuasive, I was fortunate to have it for a few days after and any spare time I had was spent trawling old favourites.
Hope that offers a little more perspective, drop me a line if you'd like any more specific info.
Cheers
Dan
Hi LL21
Hopefully you'll see attached an end of the day pic of most of the pre's to hand....The ANUK M5, Puresound L300 & Audio Research Ref3se (I'm told this Ref 3 was part of a last production of 25 Ref3's that included parts destined for the Ref5). ...
The Shindo Vosne Romanee and Robert Koda ....
Cheers
Dan
Fantastic write up! Thanks for that. I may drop you a line.
Hi checked out Dan's system yesterday, and briefly listened to the Koda in his set-up. Even though the pre had not warmed up, I could instantly make out the difference, things became more musical and relaxed. Extremely sweet and relaxing, and the pre is easy on lower quality recordings as well.
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