Let's Get A Consensus Of The Best DAC's In The Market Today

[Legolas]

Or any single one of the many other alternatives, don’t you think?

Synergy my friend. keep us busy, maybe years!

 

[Legolas]

My take is, a 100% solid state system can (IMO does) sound a bit sterile. I have my hard hat on now, so ready! No bricks please.

I just find any system with an injection of tubes 'somewhere' gets me more excited and relaxed, i.e. just enjoying the music, and taking my stethoscope off, analysing the sound. It is a strange thing. Can you measure it? Maybe. Can you measure when it is missing? Maybe. What's 'it' anyway.
It is Emotion IMO.

If you hear it, it is there. Enough said.

So my next question is where is the tubes best placed in such a system? Is it in the place where the signals are tiny and originate i.e.the DAC or Phono? Then let SS take on the rest? Or continue with a tube pre, then an SS power amp. Maybe an SS hybrid?

I would lay a challenge, when you are wondering round Munich high-end, do you know what rooms are using tube amplification BEFORE you enter the room? I wonder.....

 

[Audire]

The EMM Labs DA2 V2 with the EMM PRE is still amazing in our book. You get a venue-like experience. Simply amazing. But after hearing about the WADAX I desire to hear it …

 

[Steve Williams]

To quote Dave Wilson, “every system needs a tube“

 

[Legolas]

or 2 even....

 

[microstrip]

To quote Dave Wilson, “every system needs a tube“

I think we should consider that this statement was made long ago, before solid state electronics reached the current status. IMHO sometimes tubes can represent better value for money at some price levels, but are not mandatory to get SOTA sound reproduction.

 

[Legolas]

Yes things have advanced (we hope)

 

[morricab]

My take is, a 100% solid state system can (IMO does) sound a bit sterile. I have my hard hat on now, so ready! No bricks please.

I just find any system with an injection of tubes 'somewhere' gets me more excited and relaxed, i.e. just enjoying the music, and taking my stethoscope off, analysing the sound. It is a strange thing. Can you measure it? Maybe. Can you measure when it is missing? Maybe. What's 'it' anyway.
It is Emotion IMO.

If you hear it, it is there. Enough said.

So my next question is where is the tubes best placed in such a system? Is it in the place where the signals are tiny and originate i.e.the DAC or Phono? Then let SS take on the rest? Or continue with a tube pre, then an SS power amp. Maybe an SS hybrid?

I would lay a challenge, when you are wondering round Munich high-end, do you know what rooms are using tube amplification BEFORE you enter the room? I wonder.....

Where are tubes best placed?? EVERYWHERE!

 

[morricab]

I think we should consider that this statement was made long ago, before solid state electronics reached the current status. IMHO sometimes tubes can represent better value for money at some price levels, but are not mandatory to get SOTA sound reproduction.

And yet you are heavy on the tube gear... doesn't that imply YOU think tubes are necessary for a SOTA system?

 

[Tango]

There is no best dac in the market today. The best dac in the market always comes tomorrow. Best way to continue getting on a non stop dac train is to join a dac manufacturer actively promoting their dac so that you get favorable treatment from them and not having too much switching cost the next time you catch another train.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There is no best dac in the market today. The best dac in the market always comes tomorrow. Best way to continue getting on a non stop dac train is to join a dac manufacturer actively promoting their dac so that you get favorable treatment from them and not having too much switching cost the next time you catch another train.

i can't blame you for viewing things that way, the best dac is not a thing you have not put much effort into discovering (at least that you have ever shared). i will agree that tomorrows best dac is better than today's best one, since we are still on a steep digital learning curve. whereas you and many think the best speakers were made long ago.

is there a singular best dac today? agree it's objectively unanswerable. we can all have an opinion. i have mine based on my information.

i will say the better question would be what is the best dac/server combination? since that is really the reality situation. the media is trivial with digital, beside the point. it's all the tech, besides matters of personal output stage taste.

when i compare my analog efforts to my digital efforts they seem to be parallel in terms of efforts and asset allocation. and when i look at my listening time, i'm getting more ROI from my digital commitment. so yes, it's a dac train, but no different than the vinyl one. and the vinyl one includes heavy asset allocation for media.

 

[microstrip]

A couple of my friends have told me that lately the forum has become all about vintage systems, and SETs and horns so they don’t read it much anymore. But when I look at the “what’s new“ section, all I see are threads about DACs and streamers. I pointed this out to them.

I can't avoid smiling when someone starts a post stating "a couple of my friends have told me" ...

I find it very interesting that Steve just got the new Lampizator Horizon DAC and Mike just got the new Wadax Reference DAC. Both of these are arguably the new digital reference judging by the many positive comments. It is not surprising that two threads plus the streamer thread are very active right now.

I must say that IMHO opinions in a small audio forum are not enough to create a new digital reference. Effectively I never saw a digital reference in this hobby, just some groups of preferences.

What I do find surprising, however, is that we are talking about solid-state versus tube again, and that we are describing these different technologies in very general even stereotypical terms the way we used to describe amplifier technology and sound: linearity versus coloration. I suppose things will never change.

You have a point here. Stereotypes can't bring anything valuable in this hobby. Please note I include stereotypes about extreme conditions of pinpoint, excessive detail and contrast in this sentence.

But it would be very interesting if someone directly compared these two new reference DACs in the same system. Surely there would be people preferring either one over the other. What I am curious about as a vinyl listener is do these DACs really sound very different from each other, and if so, which one sounds more like real music? Like with so much Else in this fascinating hobby, there may never be a consensus.

Interesting because they are enjoyable data points, but mainly if people carefully explain the reason of their difference referring to recordings and sound reproduction detail on their characteristics. If they obsess on just telling it sounds more musical, more like real music and little else they are just more mine is better than yours.

Again preference or sounding like real music in top equipment is usually a question of system and room compatibility and listener experience/taste than question of the position of the equipment in pseudo rankings.

 

[Tango]

whereas you and many think the best speakers were made long ago.

I don't think that Mike. I only think some rare speakers made long ago make great sound, has sentimental value and will at least retain the value of my investment. Just taking a different approach in exploring audio gears which is my fun on this hobby.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't think that Mike. I only think some rare speakers made long ago make great sound, has sentimental value and will at least retain the value of my investment. Just taking a different approach in exploring audio gears which is my fun on this hobby.

fair enough, Tang. thanks for the clarification.

 

[tima]

I abandoned digital years back because it was too expensive to do both it and analog at a high level, and the digital world was far from finding stability. From where I sit it's largely specialized computer technology which in computer technology history puts it around WWII - early fifties.

I am curious about one thing ... do any of the top DAC manufacturers make top ADC devices? I speculate that a top ADC manufacturer would have insight into what makes a top DAC. Any such relationships in the digital audio world?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I abandoned digital years back because it was too expensive to do both it and analog at a high level, and the digital world was far from finding stability. From where I sit it's largely specialized computer technology which in computer technology history puts it around WWII - early fifties.

I am curious about one thing ... do any of the top DAC manufacturers make top ADC devices? I speculate that a top ADC manufacturer would have insight into what makes a top DAC. Any such relationships in the digital audio world?

Merging Technologies (NADAC dac) make maybe the best ADC.....certainly the best multi-channel one as i understand it. and dCs also makes a good one.

both are on the short list of tip top dac manufacturers too.

 

[rando]

I find it curious that no interest is expressed on WBF towards Merging Technology equipment used in recording a growing amount of Classical and Electronic music in DSD

Edit Mike L. got there as I went to hit post

 

[microstrip]

And yet you are heavy on the tube gear... doesn't that imply YOU think tubes are necessary for a SOTA system?

Probably for people who read this forum occasionally. I explained it several times - most of the time I buy used equipment at nice prices, as I love SOTA performance and can't afford the ultra expensive I appreciate at retail price - I have a life outside this hobby. Used top tube equipment usually devaluates significantly more than top solid state equipment and shows much more frequently - an important aspect for someone living in CE. Also differences between previous and next model are usually much larger in solid state than in tube equipment, making an used model a better choice. All IMHO, YMMV.

There are all kinds of excellent gear around. If we have an open mind and understand in depth the mechanisms of stereo sound reproduction choice becomes mostly an affair of matching gear and room, together with maximization of value for money. The nice thing of living audiophilia as an hobby is that we can afford having a divagating mind - I can accepth that people in the industry have other aims and responsibilities.

 

[Steve Williams]

I completely agree with Tang's perception and MIke's response.....with a qualification

I would reply to Tang that your premise re the easy way to move up is to stay in the brand. In this country it is called, brand loyalty and/or customer satisfaction. and can apply not only to a brand but so also to dealer, distributor manufacturer or used market . For this there was,is and likely will always be a way to buy something you like for less money. So for most of us I would bet money, yours included Tang that everyone has been a recipient of a manufacturers trade up policy or something to sweeten the deal. . This is common practice in the industry here and I see no reason for suggesting that this is what we call "a good thing"

FWIW, I have used the same speaker brand since 1993
the same electronics brand since 2000


so I have no problem with reward for customer loyalty. I bet most reading this extend some form of this in your everyday business. It was called bartering in the Middle Ages and continues until this day. So lets acknowledge Tang for suggesting getting on the train is a good thing.

So I agree with you Tang. This is a rapidly changing market and yesterday is today and tomorrow comes pretty quickly. People must decide what is best for them but at some point when today becomes tomorrow and there is something better in my brand the trade up policy gets me there a whole lot faster than having to list gear and/or take a major hit because there is no trade up policy. All of us are on our train with different destinations and at some point we all get to our destinations. Having a little help along the way in the manner in which you describe is a very good thing IMHO

 

[Steve Williams]

Used top tube equipment usually devaluates significantly more than top solid state equipment and shows much more frequently - an important aspect for someone living in CE. Also differences between previous and next model are usually much larger in solid state than in tube equipment, making an used model a better choice. All IMHO, YMMV.

micro I disagree with everything you stated in the above quote except for "YMMV"