Low ceiling (8') treatment

[rich121]

My room is 17.5"W x 22.5"L x 7.8'H
I have expanded from 2 separate rooms to one large room.
The walls/ceiling are still open.
From what I understand, my low 8' ceiling is the biggest problem.
From what I understand, the frequency issues I will have are from 160Hz and below.

I was hoping to fill the ceiling with acoustic rock wool (I have 2"x6" ceiling joists, so a 5.5" ceiling cavity, but could add whatever needed depth) and then use acoustic ceiling tile with at least a .65/.70 absorption rating.

How would I calculate the thickness of rock wool used with the acoustic ceiling tile?

Could someone give me some references, books or links for more information?

Thanks,

Rick

 

[Cellcbern]

My room is 17.5"W x 24"L x 8'H
I have expanded from 2 separate rooms to one large room.
The walls/ceiling are still open.
From what I understand, my low 8' ceiling is the biggest problem.
From what I understand, the frequency issues I will have are from 160Hz and below.

I was hoping to fill the ceiling with acoustic rock wool (I have 2"x6" ceiling joists, so a 5.5" ceiling cavity, but could add whatever needed depth) and then use acoustic ceiling tile with at least a .65/.70 absorption rating.

How would I calculate the thickness of rock wool used with the acoustic ceiling tile?

Could someone give me some references, books or links for more information?

Thanks,

Rick

FYI:

Acoustic Treatment Setup 101: How to Treat Your Room for High Fidelity Listening & Mixing

The ultimate tutorial on how to treat your room. Examples and guidelines for placing acoustic panels, diffusers and bass traps in studio control rooms and hi-fi media rooms.

arqen.com

 

[rich121]

FYI:

Acoustic Treatment Setup 101: How to Treat Your Room for High Fidelity Listening & Mixing

The ultimate tutorial on how to treat your room. Examples and guidelines for placing acoustic panels, diffusers and bass traps in studio control rooms and hi-fi media rooms.

arqen.com

Link does not work in either Firefox nor Microsoft Edge... both report non-secure site

 

[DonH50]

There will be a null at 1/2 the distance between floor and ceiling. See if your ears are at 48" (or whatever that ends up being) and if not then that is not a big deal. Hopefully true as there's not a lot you can do about nulls -- treatment would have to be so thick as to be impractical. For reflections at higher frequencies, Rockwool and acoustic tiles will work, and I would fill the space above the tiles with Rockwool and that should be enough. Acoustic panels are generally 4" thick so 5"~6" is fine. I would keep the ceiling as high as possible (not drop it further) for acoustic and aesthetic reasons.

Ethan's site has a lot of useful material: www.realtraps.com

HTH - Don

 

[Cellcbern]

Link does not work in either Firefox nor Microsoft Edge... both report non-secure site

Worked for me this morning but getting the same "not secure" message now.

 

[adyc]

Not really room treatment advice. But a tall line source speaker will mostly reduce low ceiling acoustic problems.

 

[rich121]

Not really room treatment advice. But a tall line source speaker will mostly reduce low ceiling acoustic problems.

Yes, I waited all last year for the release of Danny of GR-Research, 'Line Force' as I was very interested... but hopefully by next year.

 

[rich121]

There will be a null at 1/2 the distance between floor and ceiling. See if your ears are at 48" (or whatever that ends up being) and if not then that is not a big deal. Hopefully true as there's not a lot you can do about nulls -- treatment would have to be so thick as to be impractical. For reflections at higher frequencies, Rockwool and acoustic tiles will work, and I would fill the space above the tiles with Rockwool and that should be enough. Acoustic panels are generally 4" thick so 5"~6" is fine. I would keep the ceiling as high as possible (not drop it further) for acoustic and aesthetic reasons.

Ethan's site has a lot of useful material: www.realtraps.com

HTH - Don

Thank you... I have watched his youtube videos.
With different seating and a little slouching, ear height should be between 35" to 38".

 

[Cellcbern]

My room is 17.5"W x 22.5"L x 7.8'H
I have expanded from 2 separate rooms to one large room.
The walls/ceiling are still open.
From what I understand, my low 8' ceiling is the biggest problem.
From what I understand, the frequency issues I will have are from 160Hz and below.

I was hoping to fill the ceiling with acoustic rock wool (I have 2"x6" ceiling joists, so a 5.5" ceiling cavity, but could add whatever needed depth) and then use acoustic ceiling tile with at least a .65/.70 absorption rating.

How would I calculate the thickness of rock wool used with the acoustic ceiling tile?

Could someone give me some references, books or links for more information?

Thanks,

Rick

Recently deployed ASI Sugar Cubes on the entire ceiling along with the acoustical panels. The two outside rows of panels are RPG BAD (combination absorber/diffuser) while the central row is absorbers. Sugar Cubes are deployed in a grid of roughly 23" squares, and in the upper room corners (where I've always used them). I've tried both the ASI Resonators and Sugar Cubes on the walls in the past (eclipsed by the DHDI ZR Acoustics panels), but didn't think to try them over the whole ceiling until I saw photos of ceiling deployment at Hiendy.com and Audio Exotics. They work very well on the ceiling, reducing reflections without deadening the room, increasing clarity, and subjectively (at least) allowing me to play at higher volume levels without strain or distortion. Can''t explain how/why they work but very pleased with the results. Part of it is probably that my speakers are only 40" tall, but with the extensive room treatment I've done I'm not hearing the kinds of issues normally associated with a low ceiling. 1st photo is ceiling of Franck Tchang's Paris office, 2nd is "Mr. Zanden's" famous listening room from Audio Exotics, 3rd is deployment of Sugar Cubes on the ceiling at Hiendy.com, and last is the 8 ft. ceiling of my listening room.

 

[Chops]

Sorry, but I can't believe those ASI Sugar Cubes are doing a single thing for the room or system (likewise for those ASI Resonators). They make no sense and are entirely way too small to do any good of any kind. Just the laws of physics.

 

[Cellcbern]

Sorry, but I can't believe those ASI Sugar Cubes are doing a single thing for the room or system (likewise for those ASI Resonators). They make no sense and are entirely way too small to do any good of any kind. Just the laws of physics.

Small though they may be they are extraordinarily powerful. Just a couple properly placed are the equivalent of an acoustical panel. At one point I had another five on each side of the grey RPG BAD ceiling panels and the room was as overdamped as if I had added 6” of fiberglass. I had to remove them. The Audiodrom reviewer also found that a few too many could easily overdamp a room. I am telling you what I’ve heard and learned from testing and deploying them. I am not speculating absent experience. They have been extensively reviewed (e.g., 6Moons, Positive Feedback, Audiodrom) and it is my understanding that they are patented and used commercially in Europe and Asia. The good news for anyone who would like to try them is that they are cheap and if you don’t like them they tend to sell out quickly in the used market. Note that I did not have the bandwidth to go through the fine tuning by turning each cube on its axis exercise as per the ASI instructions for wall placement. Each cube is placed on my ceiling with the single hole facing front and back. By the way-exactly which law(s) of physics do you think they violate?

FYI:

ASI Sugar Cubes: Devil's Dice

Test - review of Acoustic System International Sugar Cubes

www.audiodrom.net

"....In the end, I decided to remove four Sugar Cubes from the grid not to dampen the sound too much. The last sentence needs to be read twice: not to dampen the sound too much? Dampen? With a handful of small wooden cubes, really?....Well, just accept the fact that with Sugar Cubes you can drastically alter the sound in a room in any preferred direction, from total deadening to maximum reverb....".

asi

"....The orientation of these holes gives you a powerful tuning device. Start with the two-holed side pointing to the ceiling. This is the most open and neutral and won't affect tonal balance. Need more wood tone and warmth? Switch to one-hole side vertical. Even warmer, go to a no-hole side up....".

6moons audio reviews: ASI Sugar Cubes

 

[Chops]

Or in this case, someone trying to justify their purchase on a bogus tweak.

And you don't have to quote the nonsense reviews either. Already breezed through them earlier for a good laugh.

 

[Cellcbern]

Small though they may be they are extraordinarily powerful. Just a couple properly placed are the equivalent of an acoustical panel. At one point I had another five on each side of the grey RPG BAD ceiling panels and the room was as overdamped as if I had added 6” of fiberglass. I had to remove them. The Audiodrom reviewer also found that a few too many could easily overdamp a room. I am telling you what I’ve heard and learned from testing and deploying them. I am not speculating absent experience. They have been extensively reviewed (e.g., 6Moons, Positive Feedback, Audiodrom) and it is my understanding that they are patented and used commercially in Europe and Asia. The good news for anyone who would like to try them is that they are cheap and if you don’t like them they tend to sell out quickly in the used market. Note that I did not have the bandwidth to go through the fine tuning by turning each cube on its axis exercise as per the ASI instructions for wall placement. Each cube is placed on my ceiling with the single hole facing front and back. By the way-exactly which law(s) of physics do you think they violate?

FYI:

ASI Sugar Cubes: Devil's Dice

Test - review of Acoustic System International Sugar Cubes

www.audiodrom.net

"....In the end, I decided to remove four Sugar Cubes from the grid not to dampen the sound too much. The last sentence needs to be read twice: not to dampen the sound too much? Dampen? With a handful of small wooden cubes, really?....Well, just accept the fact that with Sugar Cubes you can drastically alter the sound in a room in any preferred direction, from total deadening to maximum reverb....".

asi

"....The orientation of these holes gives you a powerful tuning device. Start with the two-holed side pointing to the ceiling. This is the most open and neutral and won't affect tonal balance. Need more wood tone and warmth? Switch to one-hole side vertical. Even warmer, go to a no-hole side up....".

6moons audio reviews: ASI Sugar Cubes

The little ASI cubes are made of rosewood, a wood prized by guitar makers because it resonates in response to vibrations from the strings in a way that enhances tone. Apparently Mr.Tchang (who builds and plays guitars) initiallly tried a solid cube and found through experimentation that drilling holes through increased its resonating capability. While I haven’t seen a detailed scientific explanation of how they work, it appears that the resonance they generate when struck by sound waves disrupts or redirects the reflection of those sound waves, effectively reducing their impact on the room. You can hear this effect clearly by placing a cube in each ceiling corner, as Marshall Nack described in the PFO review. If your listening room ceiling corners are not otherwise treated I would recommend corner deployment, regardless of what other room treatments you may have, and even if you have none. Cost for four corners-$48 US plus shipping.

 

[Chops]

The little ASI cubes are made of rosewood, a wood prized by guitar makers because it resonates in response to vibrations from the strings in a way that enhances tone

Yeah, a sheet of wood only a couple millimeters thick and roughly 12" wide and 15" long, which is thin enough and large enough to physically and audibly resonate.

A tiny 10mm cube of wood with or without a few tiny holes drilled in it will resonate around 34 kHz! LOL

While I haven’t seen a detailed scientific explanation of how they work

That's because they don't, because by the laws of physics, they can't.

Cost for four corners-$48 US plus shipping

That's okay. You spend your money on those Sugar Cubes. I already spent money on my Sugar Cubes, and for a bit less.

 

[Cellcbern]

Yeah, a sheet of wood only a couple millimeters thick and roughly 12" wide and 15" long, which is thin enough and large enough to physically and audibly resonate.

A tiny 10mm cube of wood with or without a few tiny holes drilled in it will resonate around 34 kHz! LOL




That's because they don't, because by the laws of physics, they can't.




That's okay. You spend your money on those Sugar Cubes. I already spent money on my Sugar Cubes, and for a bit less.

I asked previously and you didn’t respond, so again, which law(s) of physics are you referring to? Please explain. And please explain the science and math behind your conclusion that a 1/2” rosewood cube would resonate at 34hz. Can you do that or are you just making this stuff up?

 

[Cellcbern]

Yeah, a sheet of wood only a couple millimeters thick and roughly 12" wide and 15" long, which is thin enough and large enough to physically and audibly resonate.

A tiny 10mm cube of wood with or without a few tiny holes drilled in it will resonate around 34 kHz! LOL




That's because they don't, because by the laws of physics, they can't.




That's okay. You spend your money on those Sugar Cubes. I already spent money on my Sugar Cubes, and for a bit less.

Amazing to me in a hobby all about listening that someone would spend so much “ink” bashing something they’ve never heard. Also don't understand the thought process that would lead to the conclusion that I (or any poster) might feel a need to “justify” their purchase and use of a tweak (“bogus” or not) to members of this forum.

 

[Chops]

I asked previously and you didn’t respond, so again, which law(s) of physics are you referring to? Please explain. And please explain the science and math behind your conclusion that a 1/2” rosewood cube would resonate at 34hz. Can you do that or are you just making this stuff up?

To answer your question about which laws of physics, pretty much all of them. LOL

And I said 34 kHz, not 34 Hz. It was meant as a half joke because those cubes are roughly 10mm squares, and the wavelength of 34 kHz is roughly 10mm long.

Amazing to me in a hobby all about listening that someone would spend so much “ink” bashing something they’ve never heard. Also don't understand the thought process that would lead to the conclusion that I (or any poster) might feel a need to “justify” their purchase and use of a tweak (“bogus” or not) to members of this forum.

Well, I have common sense, have a pretty good grasp on various concepts and technologies, and I call them as I see them. No good bedside manors from me.

I have seen, experimented with, read, and struggled to "hear" all of these various bogus tweaks that are offered in the hifi industry, and 99% of the time, they are just that, bogus items that do nothing, reviewers that refuse to be honest, and people who are going to attempt to stand by their purchases because they are either afraid to admit they were suckered, or they "think" they actually hear a difference because of all of the bogus stuff they read about said products.... *cough* - placebo - *cough*

I mean, honestly... One reviewer said he put one or two of these things on his window and nearly eliminated all outside noise coming through the window. LOL

Do you realize how many MILLIONS would be made by ASI if that were true?! All office buildings around the world as well as all recording studios, all commercial and residential buildings would come with these already installed, again all over the world! Heck, even all vehicles would come with them!

Like I said before, waste your $48 on those things and I'll invest my $48 in actual music.

You may want to look into these pebbles as well... LOL

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I wasted more than 48 bucks worth of time reading those dopey "reviews." Likewise, the website is crapola. Of course, I have not tried them, which invalidates this post. I'll just have to live with that.

 

[Chops]

LOL! Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Then again, common sense is a lost trait these days, so I'm not too surprised at threads and items like this.

It's quite obvious very few of you here understand how acoustics work.

 

[Chops]

Just a bit more fuel for the fire on "tweaks" for audiophiles... Well, some audiophiles anyway.