Ceiling corner placement photos:
Low ceiling (8') treatment
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There have of course been other "too small to possibly work" acoustical devices over the years that have been well reviewed, e.g., Golden Sound Acoustic Discs, Harmonix Room Tuning Discs, and most recently Synergistic HFT's. No doubt many people drawing on the "laws of physics" and exercising "common sense" have concluded without ever listening to any of them that they couldn't possibly do anything. I have actually tried all of them in my listening rooms over the years and found them all to make an audible improvement, although as with all tweaks results will be room/system dependent. The ASI Sugar Cubes are at the head of the pack for me when you consider cost and performance. Note that Audiodrom.net reviewed both the HFT's and the Sugar Cubes and compared the two. Makes interesting reading.
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LOL
Reviewers don't give bad reviews because they either don't get paid OR the company that those products come from will not come back to that reviewer again for future reviews, hence why you very rarely ever see negative reviews from "professional" reviewers. So of course all of those products you mentioned have been "well reviewed". Those reviewers want to get paid.
Also, you don't have to try and convince me about any of these products. I'm simply not interested for various very good reasons. And that Audiodrom.net review may be an interesting read for you or others, but highly doubt it would interest me at all.
You go ahead and purchase those products that make you happy and I'll purchase the products that I know work and are proven to work. Sure, I'll end up paying more than you for said products, but there's a very good reason for that.
Anyway... Enjoy!
Reviewers don't give bad reviews because they either don't get paid OR the company that those products come from will not come back to that reviewer again for future reviews, hence why you very rarely ever see negative reviews from "professional" reviewers. So of course all of those products you mentioned have been "well reviewed". Those reviewers want to get paid.
Also, you don't have to try and convince me about any of these products. I'm simply not interested for various very good reasons. And that Audiodrom.net review may be an interesting read for you or others, but highly doubt it would interest me at all.
You go ahead and purchase those products that make you happy and I'll purchase the products that I know work and are proven to work. Sure, I'll end up paying more than you for said products, but there's a very good reason for that.
Anyway... Enjoy!
“Try and convince you”?
I posted continuations of my own posts for the benefit of all posters who might be interested-I didn’t reply to you.
I posted continuations of my own posts for the benefit of all posters who might be interested-I didn’t reply to you.
...well, we seem to agree that corners can be sonic trash-cans, and a room may benefit from treating them. I use Primacoustic corner traps. They were one of the first treatments I added to the room, and they're still in place.
Re: the cubes, we could speculate on what they might do, since the manufacturer doesn't provide much (any?) detail.
They might reflect waves out of the corners to provide a helpful disturbance. Based on the total sq.ft. of the corner and the diminutive size of the cubes, this ratio doesn't seem like it would add much of a potential punch.
They are blocks with assymetrical holes drilled into the wood, as I understand it. So, some air/sound could enter the interior "chamber" of the cube and create an effect. I would think you would need pretty good velocity to create an effect...like those "deer whistlers" you can add to the front of your car. Not sure the efficacy of those things has been proven either, as reports by the deer population have been vague and inconclusive.
I wouldn't think the cubes would be a pressure-based solution, and corners are high pressure zones, aren't they...rather than high velocity zones?
The same manufacturer makes little bowls of different metals, They have little wings and you can rotate them to dial in the effect. Presumably, the asymmetrical holes in the cubes offer the same "tuning" options.
Based on these WBF exchanges and reading the, in my opinion, useless reviews, I decided to take Sweetie's singing bowl to the hifi room for sonic experimentation, lest I be forever categorized as a close-minded old fart. Although, the old part is true. And don't worry: Sweetie is away lecturing over-seas.
I placed the bowl on its pillow and located it on top of each speaker, the dac, the server, in front of the quad diffusors in back...and each time, I gave the bowl a whack with the padded mallot.
It makes a ringing tone, per usual, although on top of the speakers, it does get a slight pulsing effect. That would be the test closest to the ceiling, which perhaps could account for a reverb effect?
But it requires me giving it a whack; it did not audibly ring when placed in any of the locations. I did these tests with and without music playing.
I could not hear any effect with the music playing at normal volumes, in any location. Maybe I need more bowls and assistants to strike in unison?
What did I learn? About as much as reading those "reviews." If those little cubes are helping your room, @Cellcbern that's good. I don't see how they could be, but there are many things I cannot explain. Think they generate any tone or vibration when in situ one could measure? Cheers...
Re: the cubes, we could speculate on what they might do, since the manufacturer doesn't provide much (any?) detail.
They might reflect waves out of the corners to provide a helpful disturbance. Based on the total sq.ft. of the corner and the diminutive size of the cubes, this ratio doesn't seem like it would add much of a potential punch.
They are blocks with assymetrical holes drilled into the wood, as I understand it. So, some air/sound could enter the interior "chamber" of the cube and create an effect. I would think you would need pretty good velocity to create an effect...like those "deer whistlers" you can add to the front of your car. Not sure the efficacy of those things has been proven either, as reports by the deer population have been vague and inconclusive.
I wouldn't think the cubes would be a pressure-based solution, and corners are high pressure zones, aren't they...rather than high velocity zones?
The same manufacturer makes little bowls of different metals, They have little wings and you can rotate them to dial in the effect. Presumably, the asymmetrical holes in the cubes offer the same "tuning" options.
Based on these WBF exchanges and reading the, in my opinion, useless reviews, I decided to take Sweetie's singing bowl to the hifi room for sonic experimentation, lest I be forever categorized as a close-minded old fart. Although, the old part is true. And don't worry: Sweetie is away lecturing over-seas.
I placed the bowl on its pillow and located it on top of each speaker, the dac, the server, in front of the quad diffusors in back...and each time, I gave the bowl a whack with the padded mallot.
It makes a ringing tone, per usual, although on top of the speakers, it does get a slight pulsing effect. That would be the test closest to the ceiling, which perhaps could account for a reverb effect?
But it requires me giving it a whack; it did not audibly ring when placed in any of the locations. I did these tests with and without music playing.
I could not hear any effect with the music playing at normal volumes, in any location. Maybe I need more bowls and assistants to strike in unison?
What did I learn? About as much as reading those "reviews." If those little cubes are helping your room, @Cellcbern that's good. I don't see how they could be, but there are many things I cannot explain. Think they generate any tone or vibration when in situ one could measure? Cheers...
If by "little bowls" you are referring to the ASI Resonators I am familiar with them. I tried them several years back but not a full compliment because of the high cost of the precious metal versions. In my case I heard little change with them deployed per the instructions on the walls behind the speakers and listening position, and a clearly audible but negative impact when I added them on the side walls. The addition of just one on each rear side wall per the instructions robbed the music of dynamics, softening all frequencies. My conclusion, a logical one I think, was that my deployment of them was neither complete nor successful - not that they don't do anything. I have heard them make a positive impact in other audiophiles' systems, and at shows and dealers. And note that dealer Rhapsody Audio, who many WBF posters seem to have a high regard for, has said on this forum that they have the ASI resonators deployed in their listening rooms. Note also that I have used both the Primacoustic and earlier Corner Busters triangular ceiling corner absorbers and found the ASI Sugar cubes to be much better than both in that position. I also found the Golden Sound and Harmonix discs to be superior to these corner absorbers, but not as effective as the Sugar Cubes. I put no stock in opinions about products from people who have never tried them, and am not interested in speculation about how they might or might not work in a hobby based on listening. I got the same kind of uninformed comments from a number of posters here about the DHDI ZR Acoustics panels that I tested extensively and ended up deploying in my listening room. My ceiling deployment of the ASI Sugar cubes was surprisingly successful which is why I posted about it, and my need to remove a bunch of them to avoid over damping the room demonstrates just how powerful an impact they can make - however they work.
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Well you have no one to blame but yourself for that.
Again, common sense has a lot to do with, knowing these things do absolutely nothing but lighten your wallet.
Common sense is becoming a rare thing these days, and it shows.
No stock, no interest, and no clue what you are talking about. "Blame" doesn't enter into this discussion at all, and "lightening my wallet" is not an issue when I'm posting about a tweak/product that 1) cost about $200 to deploy, and 2) I am very pleased with.
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FYI:
Interesting write-up from AE by an apparently well know customer with a cost no object system (photo attached) that was personally tuned by the proprietors of Zanden and Cessaro with acoustical tuning done by Franck Tchang:
Cessaro's Alpha One horn speakers - An Audiophile's Journey's End !
First and foremost, I wish to express my gratitude to Ralph of Cessaro and Yamada-san of Zanden Audio for visiting me last week to help me install the large horn speakers in my listening room and to offer me specific advice so that I can optimise the potential of my treasured audio system.
audioexotics.vanillacommunity.com
Excerpt: "....Contrary to popular belief that horns are directional drivers which transmit sound directly at its listener, the use of room tuning device such as the sugar cubes on 3 strategic (reflective) places of the wall to deal with reflective sound pressure resulted in getting the exact tonality I wanted, see the position of these little wooden cubes, top one deals with the big horn, middle one for the super tweeter and the lower one for the massive but very fast 16 inch TAD bass driver – my deepest gratitude to Franck Tchang of Acoustic System International for teaching me how to hear sound reflection and tackle them “the way” you want them to behave as well as other room tuning techniques. The sum of these enable the Alpha One to sing its heart out in my room, I can’t imagine how these powerful beast will behave in an untreated room or room with poor acoustics....".
Perhaps the problem is not with the ASI Resonators and Sugar Cubes but rather with yours and my lack of expertise/experience and "hearing" in deploying them.
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...could be, could be. I'm open minded about things. Hell, I brought my wife's singing bowl I carried from India to mess around with the room. I just long for a little more detail on the concepts. Carry on.
FYI - other uses of the Sugar Cubes from the AE forum:
Directly on Wilson Leung's turntable - "....My Kuzma, Thales and Shilabe combo. To make this T/T sound more musical and with dead quiet background, I replaced the stock heavy clamp with ASI wooden clamp, the light DIN power cords connected in the right direction, 4 ground wires (3 silver and one copper) connected to the 2 motors and Thales arm and wire connection in the power supply checked and re-wired. The heavy metal construction affects the sound and use of sugar cubes/diffuser restores harmonic details. The above mentioned necessary and vastly effective mods were done with the help of Yamada-san, Franck Tchang, Mater Wei and yours truly. All in all, this is now a very musical turntable (DV still rein supreme in this area) with a solid composure when playing symphonies and musically rewarding when playing chamber music...".
Directly on (Horning Eufrodite) speakers - "....Day three, after listening to my usual CDs, although music with strings and opera were good, Aaron Neville was not quite singing openly to me as before, so I proceeded with more adjustments on the sugar cubes & diffusers located on the walls & doors, sound coherence improved further. I kept staring at these thin but very deep black boxes and knew the side panels must be treated also as I could intuitively sense the clarity & transparency were compromised by the micro-vibration from these panels. 3 sugar cubes were used on each speaker, one on the outer panel, another in the middle of the center panel and third one between the horn tweeter and the Lowther driver. I played a few tracks and now I was satisfied, I could play many different types of music and in particular, string sonata, chamber and operatic music coming out of these speakers were slightly better....". Full discussion here: [URL unfurl="true"]https://audioexotics.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/1632#Comment_1632[/URL]
I've ordered more Sugar Cubes so I can experiment further.
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FYI: Key line from the Audiodrom.net review of the resonators which may explain your lack of success with them and mine:
"......The difference between “I cannot hear a change” and “Wow!” is often just one centimeter...."..
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"Either Sugar Cubes do improve music or they don’t improve music. We know they don’t improve music, therefore they do improve music." Q E D
I think there’s some of this upside down logic here. Some don't recognise common sense, perhaps?
In fact we know that Sugar Cubes don’t improve music, therefore they don’t improve music. Simple as that.
Peter
I think there’s some of this upside down logic here. Some don't recognise common sense, perhaps?
In fact we know that Sugar Cubes don’t improve music, therefore they don’t improve music. Simple as that.
Peter
They do improve the music. I say that based on listening to them - in multiple different deployment patterns, over many hours/days/weeks/, with 2nd, 3d, 4th......opinions from audiophile colleagues who also listened. Not sure what logic or common sense has to do with anything in a hobby where the ears are the ultimate arbiters of performance.
I would welcome the insights of anyone else who has deployed and listened to them even if their results are different from my own.
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Hi Cellcbern, I want to try the Sugar Cubes on the ceiling corners. Just one per corner is enough?
I've only used one per corner - about 4" down from ceiling and out from side wall, but I have seen a 2nd one placed on the side wall.
