Magnets in Audio: How Do They Work?

[DonH50]

Uh, some of this contradicts what I was taught in my graduate theory classes, and what I see in the real world, but whatever... IME a magnet (ferrite, actually) can affect the a.c. current through a wire by virtue of EM coupling. HOWEVER, I am not sure it's relevant given we appear to be talking about placing magnets on top of components? Somehow I lost what we are talking about... Senility, I guess - Don

 

[Gedlee]

Well, this is all very interesting. The only problem is, they do work. Now, how could that be?

As with many things in audio, there are a dozen sane reasons why something shouldn't make a difference. Maybe they are magic?

That is most certainly the answer, because its not physics.

 

[wineslob]

I'm sure P.T. Barnum would have had something to say.......

 

[microstrip]

That is most certainly the answer, because its not physics.

Magnetism and semiconductors are not physics? How do you think that bipolar transistor magnetic sensors operate?

 

[Robert]

I am a scientist. While I appreciate the cynism and skepticism, this is going backwards. An observation has been made: when large magnet modules, probably made of neodynium, are positioned carefully along a wire, the result can be an audible improvement. Discrediting a phenomenon based upon not understanding or experiencing it, is not a strong argument.

In other words, Newton watches the apple fall. Some tell him it falls because of God. Others say it is magic. And the scientists say it did not really fall?

There are many unexplained events in audio. Why do 1s and 0s sound different depending upon the transport? Why does the last 6 ft of the power line matter when there are 30 miles on the other side? Why does the 1 meter connection between the components make a difference?

So, the title is 'How Do They Work", not 'Whether They Work'. Is it skin effect, or how else can strong magnets influence the electrons? +1 to microstrip for keeping an open mind and at least acknowledging that it is plausible. It's all physics.

We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. -- Thomas Alva Edison

I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it. -- Erwin Schrodinger talking about quantum mechanics.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I am a scientist. An observation has been made: when large magnet modules, probably made of neodynium, are positioned carefully along a wire, the result can be an audible improvement.

The obvious next step is to verify the observation. I know you're certain that the sound improved, but others here are skeptical and likely consider any improvement to be imagined. If you really are a scientist as you say, then surely you understand the value of a proper blind test to remove human bias and expectation. So that's the next step.

Newton watches the apple fall. Some tell him it falls because of God. Others say it is magic. And the scientists say it did not really fall?

No, scientists say the apple fell because of gravity, then they proceed to understand and explain gravity.

There are many unexplained events in audio.

That's a new one on me!

Why do 1s and 0s sound different depending upon the transport? Why does the last 6 ft of the power line matter when there are 30 miles on the other side? Why does the 1 meter connection between the components make a difference?

All of that and much more is answered in this hour-long video: AES Audio Myths Workshop

--Ethan

 

[Gedlee]

So, the title is 'How Do They Work", not 'Whether They Work'.

"Whether they work", certainly has to be established before "Why do they work" can be discussed rationaly. I must have missed the "Whether they work" thread and its supporting data.

 

[RBFC]

Ethan or Earl,

Why don't one of you attempt to set up a quick test for the effects of magnets on a system you're familiar with, and see what happens? Magnets near conductors certainly do affect current flow, so I'd be interested to see what transpires.

Lee

 

[amirm]

The obvious next step is to verify the observation. I know you're certain that the sound improved, but others here are skeptical and likely consider any improvement to be imagined. If you really are a scientist as you say, then surely you understand the value of a proper blind test to remove human bias and expectation. So that's the next step.

I hear you Ethan but the thread has been created the way it has. Robert thinks he has heard something and is asking for help from others on theory of why. I am interested in that discussion. Why? Because that is something new and interesting. Love to see more references to ideas we could chase and understand in this area.

The notion that many are skeptical is a given and not anything new to discuss. I personally have no magnets in anything I use and am skeptical just the same but always interested to hear and understand otherwise .

 

[DonH50]

Actually, if you have a wire with current (a.c. or d.c.) anywhere around, you have a magnetic field. (Sorry, but somebody was going to be the SA and say it...)

I am still fuzzy on exactly where/how the magnets were applied. I might have missed it, or am just too lazy to look again, but could somebody please state again exactly what type of magnet is applied where in the system that is yielding the audible results claimed? I have some EM knowledge but it ain't my speciality, but like others I am very curious to see if there might be a scientific explanation (at least an hypothesis).

 

[Ethan Winer]

Magnets near conductors certainly do affect current flow

interested to hear and understand otherwise .

I asked Robert if he's talking about audio wires or power powers, and didn't see a clear answer. He did mention a power cable that has large magnets in close proximity. I see no mechanism by which magnets near a power wire would have any effect on audio passing through the connected device.

--Ethan

 

[Gedlee]

I asked Robert if he's talking about audio wires or power powers, and didn't see a clear answer. He did mention a power cable that has large magnets in close proximity. I see no mechanism by which magnets near a power wire would have any effect on audio passing through the connected device.

--Ethan

Ethan - you are usually the voice of reason here, but be careful with the statement above.


All permanent magnets are made of magnetic material - DA!, ferites have low permiability, ALNICO, extremly high and Neo somewhere in the middle. All currents create magnetic fields - correctly stated below. So if I bring a magnet near to a wire carrying an AC signal, it has to interact and affect that signal, most likely by increasing the inductance seen by the wire and hence a small HF drop. I think that it is pretty clear that the presence of a magnet has an effect, no matter how small (and I would suggest that it is very small). But I think my previous point here is critical. It makes NO difference if that magnet is magnetized or not, the effect will be the same. The AC field from the currents does not interact with the DC field of the magnet and hence the DC field can be there or not, it makes no difference. The DC field of a magnet WILL affect the field from a DC current, but it won't affect the current in a steady state condition.

There are second order effects to what I stated above involving nonlinear interactions, but these are an order of magnitude smaller than the above linear effects. If the linear effects are not audible then it is inconcievable that the much smaller nonlinear effects are.

 

[silviajulieta]

I have become a staunch believer in the magical properties of magnets, in terms of modulating current. While this subject is sure to cause some skepticism and even dismissal, I am convinced that this is the missing link in many systems. I have large magnetic modules in my power conditioner, grounding unit, and now a power cable. What they provide is a sense of realness - dynamics, depth, space, roundness, energy, clarity, effortlessness. Everytime I add a component with magnets, the system increases a clear notch or two.

Can anyone provide insight on what large magnets do to an electrical signal?

Dear Robert: Yes I know you ask: how they work? but if you can I would like that you could name each one of your audio system items including a mention if you have any kind of room treatment and which kind of music you regulary are hearing and your main music source.

Thank you in advance.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Ethan Winer]

So if I bring a magnet near to a wire carrying an AC signal, it has to interact and affect that signal, most likely by increasing the inductance seen by the wire and hence a small HF drop.

Yes, I suppose I should have said no audible effect rather than no effect. But still, how big a hunk of iron is needed to add enough inductance to alter the current flow at 60 Hz? And how much restriction is needed before an audible change is possible? I always look for the common sense explanation with this stuff. And to me that points to the frailty of hearing memory and hearing perception. As always, I'm glad to be proven wrong with real evidence.

--Ethan

 

[tony ky ma]

Two same length cooper and silver as a cable's conductor, they don't sound the same, no argue, people may say because of the difference of their resistance, but I don't think so, the difference in that length vs the value of resistor use in the sound path inside the amp is so different, that is not the main reason and resistor do not effect to sound quality as big as cap or coil does, the only reason I guess is because of the traveling speed of electronics inside conductor is different in different frequency by different conductor and music signal is not a single tone is a lot different frequency harmonic combined they come out to the air from the speakers not in one path, so it will be advanced or delayed by the different transfer speed, if they can't join in the original position then sound quality will be different. capacitance and inductance will effect those speed by frequency but resistance won't and the audio cable will have self capacitance and self inductance by the way of construction and isolate material that makes cables have their own sound, also I guess a magnetic field will change the value of the self inductance of the cable that make the sound quality change too,I do not have any measurement to support this thinking but human ear can detect the difference but meter can not check it out
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

But still, how big a hunk of iron is needed to add enough inductance to alter the current flow at 60 Hz? And how much restriction is needed before an audible change is possible?
--Ethan

The current flow in a power cable is not at 60Hz, only the voltage is 60Hz. As the voltage must be rectified the current has many high order harmonics and the power supply generates noise, sometimes at very high frequencies. The current waveform of switching power supplies is even more complicated.

Mike Lavigne has referred that when the power supply has high quality (reduced harmonics and noise) the effect of power cables is reduced, and they are not needed so much - look for the posts about the Equi-Tech transformer. This suggests that improvements using power cables can be explained by their filter properties.

 

[Robert]

I have a little more information about how these are applied. The direction, combination, and number of magnets are said to be important variables. If the magnets are not positioned correctly, a negative effect can result. Too many on a single cable can also be detrimental. Large magnet modules are present in a power cable I am using (NVS Sound), a power conditioner (Tripoint Spartan), and a passive grounding device (Tripoint Troy). They can also be used with interconnects, although I am not using these. They can be applied to individual circuits within components, such as DACs. I believe some magnets are employed in a modification on my Wadia units.

The manufacturers of these products do not offer an explanation of how they work on a physical basis. They characterize the results as creating a more efficient transmission of signal, with increased dynamics and bandwidth. Interestingly, noise and other distortions seem to be improved as well.

One analogy offered is that of water draining more efficiently when a slight vortex is introduced. While that is not an explanation, it conveys the effect conceptually.

 

[RBFC]

Robert,

Since the manufacturer doesn't offer any scientific explanation for the effect of the magnets, why don't you have a friend or two rig up an experiment to test whether any of you can consistently identify the magnets' effects? While it's always interesting to hear reports of devices, etc. that improve/alter the sound of one's system, it seems that very seldom do folks attempt to engage in some sort of test to determine if it's their ears or their wallet that they're hearing. I'm not saying that there is no difference, but that there have been many products that have been shown to merely exist to drain the finances of folks looking for a "fix". I am sincerely interested in learning more about this "hobby" and want to understand why things work as they do. What do you say? We'd love to hear the results!

Thanks,

Lee

 

[wineslob]

I agree with Lee.
My main "issue" with any "improvement" to a static device is that what is being heard is considered an improvement when in fact it might be a change that someones ear likes.

 

[Steve williams]

In situations such as this I always ask myself, did I hear something better or just something different