Mono amp or Bi-amplification

[RBFC]

I currently use Classe CA-M600

If you're looking for more power without active biamplification, the Brystons are one of a few more powerful alternatives to your 600 watters! I'm truly thinking that you can do very little with amplification to improve things under those circumstances.

You might experiment by using both of your monoblocks to passively biamp ONE of your speakers, comparing the sound using one or two amps. That might provide the info you seek.

Good luck,

Lee

 

[Robh3606]

I too am interested in this question and still dont feel I have found the answer. Can someone summarize in short, what benefits may be gained from bi-amping assuming leaving the speaker crossovers in place as they are (and you have two sets of binding posts on the speakers).

That is different from a true biamp set-up. Ideally to get all the advantages you would want an active crossover that divides the signals so the amplfiers are driven only in the range they will be used in. Leaving the crossovers in place doesn't do all that much for you. One of the advantages is you are bandwidth limiting the amps but in this case you are not. The amps still get fullrange signals as the division occurs in the passive crossover as it does using a single amp.

Make sure that the speakers are set-up with seperate inputs for each crossover section and are not just set-up for Bi Wire before you try it.

Rob

 

[wes]

If you're looking for more power without active biamplification, the Brystons are one of a few more powerful alternatives to your 600 watters! I'm truly thinking that you can do very little with amplification to improve things under those circumstances.

You might experiment by using both of your monoblocks to passively biamp ONE of your speakers, comparing the sound using one or two amps. That might provide the info you seek.

Good luck,

Lee

So if I understand correctly unless one has active biamplification it is useless in passive crossover!

I don't need more power, except I am tempted to try these out ? http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr1

Any opinion?

 

[microstrip]

Thank you, yes i think that messing around with opening up the 800D would not be a wise decision, at least for me!

For movies I would say 95db max except when there are explosion, for music probably 85db if that

The B&W 800D are specified at 90dB/W , you will not need a more powerful amplifier. As you have an all Classe system, I would not feel happy mixing other amplifiers in the system. The CA M600 is a recent design, I think no other amplifier of Classe has a similar quality - the Omegas's were more powerful, but you do need more power. Besides they would not fit in your cabinets - they release a lot of heat.

IMHO you should just listen and enjoy your great system.

 

[microstrip]

So if I understand correctly unless one has active biamplification it is useless in passive crossover!

I don't need more power, except I am tempted to try these out ? http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr1

Any opinion?

No. It can make sense. But it depends on the system and amplifiers you are choosing.

 

[Robh3606]

No. It can make sense. But it depends on the system and amplifiers you are choosing.

How does it make sense?? Under what circumstances?? I have several biamp speaker set-up's and frankly passive bi-amp makes no sense to me.

I don't need more power, except I am tempted to try these out ? http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/.../products/xpr1

Any opinion?

I am using an XPA-2 to power my JBL 1400 Array clones. It's a very nice amp the Reference Series is supposed to be a cut above what I have now. If you are in the US you have a 30 day return policy. Can't go wrong.

Rob

 

[AudioExplorations]

Can someone who knows please spell out in what conditions it makes sense to passively biamp and what the potential gains would be? Thanks!

 

[GaryProtein]

I too am interested in this question and still dont feel I have found the answer. Can someone summarize in short, what benefits may be gained from bi-amping assuming leaving the speaker crossovers in place as they are (and you have two sets of binding posts on the speakers).

If an amplification channel is connected only to a tweeter, let's say, will it still work to amplify the mid low frequency signals? Since the downstream (loudspeaker) load is not being driven for low frequencies does this mean the amp does not need to work to amplify this part of the signal?

I have been told that although you will not get more SPL you will get more "slam in the bass" and "slight increase in transparency" (this last one I was told from Herve of DartZeel).

To answer your three questions:

#1 No benefit. The amps will be working to amplify the entire frequency range and the crossovers in the speaker will send only that portion of the signal to the drivers they are connected to. The rest will be wasted and be dissipated as heat.

#2 Yes, the amplifier connected to a tweeter without an active crossover will still amplify unused low and mid frequency part of the signal and that portion of the power will go to waste. See #1

#3 No. See #1

You need to use an active crossover with REAL frequency divided outputs to separate amps to get the benefits of bi-amping.

I am not familiar with the DarTZeel outputs. If they have a built in active crossover with multiple outputs of different frequency ranges feeding separate amps, you may get benefits depending on how the crossover inside your speaker is constructed/wired. The frequency ranges of the Dartzeel outputs should be the same as the crossover frequency of your speaker for good efficiency, otherwise you will have sonic benefits, but still be wasting power.

If your speaker's connections with the separate binding posts doesn't completely electrically separate say, the woofers from the midrange and tweeters, you won't get much if any benefit. Just having separate binding posts doesn't cut it. If for example, you need the jumpers from one set of binding posts to the other in order for all the drivers to work when single wiring, the crossover probably does electrically separate the woofer from the mids and tweeters and you should see benefits with your DarTZeel and bi-amping. If you can single wire to either set of binding posts without the jumpers and all the drivers work, you won't get much if any benefit using two sets of amplifiers.

 

[AudioExplorations]

If your speaker's connections with the separate binding posts doesn't completely electrically separate say, the woofers from the midrange and tweeters, you won't get much if any benefit. Just having separate binding posts doesn't cut it. If for example, you need the jumpers from one set of binding posts to the other in order for all the drivers to work when single wiring, the crossover probably does electrically separate the woofer from the mids and tweeters and you should see benefits with your DarTZeel and bi-amping. If you can single wire to either set of binding posts without the jumpers and all the drivers work, you won't get much if any benefit using two sets of amplifiers.

Thanks Gary. Is the above in the case of active bi-amping then?

 

[GaryProtein]

Thanks Gary. Is the above in the case of active bi-amping then?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to in the quote.

If you can completely electrically separate your woofers from the mids and tweeters by way of a jumper, such that part of the speaker will have no sound if the jumper is removed, you should have a good benefit with an active crossover between preamp and power amps. I think that is what you mean by "active bi-amping" which is really the only way to have a benefit.

Did I answer your question? I'll try again if I didn't.

 

[AudioExplorations]

No that answers it. Passive bi-amping (in my case since I am not about to open up my TAD CR1 speakers ) brings zero gain. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[RBFC]

If the mid/high section is not driven without jumpers in place from the other (bass) binding posts, it follows that bass-specific clipping would not affect the mids/highs since they are driven by a different amp. True, the amps are still playing into the resistance of the passive crossover, but will not carry any distortion from the other amp into their respective drivers.

Lee

 

[HedgeHog]

I thought passive bi-amping benefits from haveing separate transformers due to using separate amps so each one can handle the load better. I'm more confused with the vertical/horizontal bi-amping benefits.

 

[AudioExplorations]

HedgeHog, as we just learned there are no benefits with passive bi-amping, why would horizontal or vertical make a difference?

 

[DonH50]

In theory the current demands on the amplifiers will be different even when used in a passively bi-amped system. The problem with this subject is that, like many audio (and other!) related things, you can "prove" a benefit scientifically that is inaudible in the real world. Thus the endless debates because believers can always simply say they can hear what you can't for any number of reasons.

Vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping has been discussed before and al the trades laid out; I'm too lazy to do it all again. Vertical requires two identical amps (unless you are using four or more amps) and allows you to place the amplifiers near the speakers, reducing the speaker cable length that is arguably one of the biggest factors in how well an amp controls the drivers. It also means less crosstalk between channels through the power supplies. Horizontal allows you to choose different amplifiers for each band, e.g. a more-powerful bass amp or maybe a SS bass and tube HF amp. The LF load, often mono'ish, only affects the bass amp. And so forth and so on. The pros and cons are such that I am not sure you;ll get a definitive answer. I have run numerous bi-amp (tri-amp, etc.) systems over the years, horizontal and vertical, and my definitive answer based on decades of experience and hundreds of designs is "it depends".

 

[wes]

So here is something interesting that I learned on the B&W 800D series

"In the B&W 800Diamond series the only electrical connection between the midrange/tweeter circuits and the woofer circuits is the jumper wires or plates at the speaker terminals. So if one remove these links, the woofers are completely isolated from the midrange/tweeters and vice versa."

Therefore wouldn't this mean that they would benefit from Bi-amplification?

 

[DonH50]

Possibly but you still are not removing the internal crossovers, just separating the high and low crossover networks. Many speakers do that.

 

[GaryProtein]

So here is something interesting that I learned on the B&W 800D series

"In the B&W 800Diamond series the only electrical connection between the midrange/tweeter circuits and the woofer circuits is the jumper wires or plates at the speaker terminals. So if one remove these links, the woofers are completely isolated from the midrange/tweeters and vice versa."

Therefore wouldn't this mean that they would benefit from Bi-amplification?

YES it sounds like you will benefit from bi-amplification, but to genuinely benefit, you need an active crossover after your preamp so one amp feeds the woofer and one amp feeds the midrange and tweeter.

You need to see the speaker's specs to find what the crossover frequency between the woofer and midrange is and slopes so you can dial that into your active crossover and you'll be in business!

Don: it sounds like what you are describing is tri-amping so every driver in the three-way 800 Diamond gets its own amp, but just separating out the woofer (bi-amping) will make a good improvement.

 

[AudioExplorations]

No benefit. The amps will be working to amplify the entire frequency range and the crossovers in the speaker will send only that portion of the signal to the drivers they are connected to. The rest will be wasted and be dissipated as heat.

YES it sounds like you will benefit from bi-amplification

Gary, you are contradicting what you said earlier.

 

[JackD201]

Has anybody discussed back EMF yet?