More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[wil]

Hi Blackmore,
I started this thread to discuss streaming and it's characteristics hoping to also hear from people who's primary isn't streaming because we don't participate in dedicated streaming threads as well as those who only stream, definitely not to compare formats or to see who's is bigger. What I'm interested in is what music majority of primary streamers listen to and some insight into their systems and setup. There's no hidden agenda nor am I interested in converting anyone. I picked this video thinking that the questions came from unknowns and Paul being a "digital guy" selling primarily to this market hoping people won't read into it something that's not there.

Thank you for participating,

david

I may have missed it, but I don't recall that -- the OP -- has expressed curiosity anywhere in this thread or others about "what music majority of primary streamers listen to and some insight into their systems and setup."

Perhaps the thread's title (particularly given the past statements such as streaming being "crap") is not the most conducive way to start a constructive conversation?

Paul's video is definitely interesting as it presents one small view into the complex technical challenges that face music streaming and high fidelity. People like Emile Bok, and others, are pushing the tech with remarkable success. I think PYP's illustration of streaming being at an inflection point in a rapid growth state is probably true.

The tired "this is better/ that sucks" narrative is pretty boring and will always push buttons which then lead to bs back and forth forum attacks.

 

[dminches]

I am pretty HD tracks is primarily lossless or higher. You tube is supposedly mp3. I don't know about the others. Lack of quality is not inherent in the medium it is a matter of choice.

Can one stream from HD Tracks?

 

[dminches]

Folks, let’s stay on track Please refrain from personal spats. Any off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[wil]

Really more interested in what you stream and if it's your primary over technology and sound quality. I listen differently and to entirely different music when streaming from listening with some other medium that's why I'm curious if the medium dictates or influences what we listen to.

david

Interesting question, but I'm not sure I see how high quality streaming would lead to listening to different music than with analog playback.

I listen to all genres if it's interesting music to me. But the majority for me is jazz (a lot with more modern or avant grade leanings) followed by Classical (from ancient to modern). I also dive into "Americana," traditional County, East Indian music, and on and on.

Where I might differ from some streaming listeners: I don't skip around. I listen to albums start to finish. And if I find an album compelling, I typically listen to it many times for up to a week as it takes me that long to feel like I've plumbed depths and every nook and cranny.

 

[ddk]

I may have missed it, but I don't recall that -- the OP -- has expressed curiosity anywhere in this thread or others about "what music majority of primary streamers listen to and some insight into their systems and setup."

Since when do need your permission when in a thread to clarify a point?

Perhaps the thread's title (particularly given the past statements such as streaming being "crap") is not the most conducive way to start a constructive conversation?

Could it be if you were respectful and didn't argue something I never said I wouldn't answer you in that manner?

david

 

[ddk]

Interesting question, but I'm not sure I see how high quality streaming would lead to listening to different music than with analog playback.

Not only about digital & analog formats, I listen to same music genre on. CD and LP but rarely when they're streamed and vice versa. For me it's purely a question of the medium and involvement. The music I listen stream and listen to is what I'm fine with in the background and would never listen to any other way. Some Jazz is the exception, like WD-40 it's alway good.

I listen to all genres if it's interesting music to me. But the majority for me is jazz (a lot with more modern or avant grade leanings) followed by Classical (from ancient to modern). I also dive into "Americana," traditional County, East Indian music, and on and on.

Where I might differ from some streaming listeners: I don't skip around. I listen to albums start to finish. And if I find an album compelling, I typically listen to it many times for up to a week as it takes me that long to feel like I've plumbed depths and every nook and cranny.

YouTube videos of live concerts, specially historical ones are what I stream most and enjoy but a lot of it is for research as well.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

I could happily live with Taiko streaming to Lampi. Analog is more itch and some records are lovely. When one Lampi guy who is not into analog asked me if he was missing out, I didn’t recommend he get in unless he wants to extend his hobby. For those not looking at recordings Analog imo is pointless. Streaming to Lampi is great with piano, violin, orchestra. And then rock is just better on vinyl like a slam dunk due to the old recordings bass

“Happily live” and “great” are great, but they are not the same as “best to my ears” or “greatest suspension of disbelief.”

Analog is “pointless” unless one is “looking at recordings?” So no Vyger/Red Sparrow/All-Nic DHT for you after all?

When people ask me if analog is worth pursuing, I say I think it is and that they should try it for themselves to decide for themselves. Agreeing with somebody’s confirmation bias doesn’t help them, it seems to me.

I am aware only of Hugh who started with digital, added vinyl, and then dropped vinyl.

 

[bonzo75]

“Happily live” and “great” are not the same as “best to my ears” or “greatest suspension of disbelief.”

It is great. Not best or greatest suspension. For best or greatest suspension you will need all three formats and cherry pick recordings and performances. Which is why I clarified, "For those not looking at recordings Analog imo is pointless." If there are people here who just buy an LP without knowing differences, performances, etc. I don't think they should be in analog except to OCD over more gear.

 

[bonzo75]

“Happily live” and “great” are not the same as “best to my ears” or “greatest suspension of disbelief.”

Analog is “pointless” unless one is “looking at recordings?” So no Vyger/Red Sparrow/All-Nic DHT for you after all?

I think only Hugh started with digital, added vinyl, and then dropped vinyl.

Unless one is looking at recordings means is trying to pick up quality LP pressings. I am. I will not get into analog to play random sh*t. In fact it is also the biggest deterrent along with space to setting up a system, because problem starts after the speakers are up, as one starts spending on LPs, the expense can get endless.

Many months ago, Gian asked me if I make a lot of money on crypto (not happening now) what would I buy? I am quoting my replies from the chat:

1. I would buy the Yamamura, that was then with Vess who had bought it off Pietro
2. I would buy the Lampi Pac 242 with Audionet Stern and Heisenberg Set up that I heard at heihei
3. Vyger red sparrow, and would put the rest of the money into originals.

Anything further on gear would be on more analog and another horn, but just wanted to highlight that I thought streaming could just be phenomenal when done correctly. I got further excited on both 2 and 3 on my visit to audioquattr last month. And yes, I understand why analogphiles don't like streaming, because they don't investigate it enough. I haven't heard good digital in most of the systems I visited, and I actually try to listen.

 

[Gregadd]

Can one stream from HD Tracks?

Good question. I don't think so. I think it's a flac file.

 

[dminches]

Good question. I don't think so. I think it's a flac file.

Right. That’s why I said the services (streaming) were not lossless.

 

[Gregadd]

I don’t think any of those services are lossless (I could be wrong). I only stream from Qobuz and it sounds the same as my local files.

No need to nitpick. Here is what you said.

 

[wil]

Not only about digital & analog formats, I listen to same music genre on. CD and LP but rarely when they're streamed and vice versa. For me it's purely a question of the medium and involvement. The music I listen stream and listen to is what I'm fine with in the background and would never listen to any other way. Some Jazz is the exception, like WD-40 it's alway good.

YouTube videos of live concerts, specially historical ones are what I stream most and enjoy but a lot of it is for research as well.

david

I'm not sure I understand why your use of streaming-- which amounts to background wallpaper and YouTube -- adds anything to a discussion of streaming... other than to illustrate you have put no thought, effort or expense into it? And why would you? You have a great analog system for music listening and don't want or need anything else. So why bring up a thread about music streaming if you don't have any interest it?

 

[Blackmorec]

I don't think you set your vinyl up well or had something off in the chain. My digital is pretty good. Asus router, Linear Solution switch. Independent modem. All 3 on individual LPS. All 3 LPS plugged into a Torus transformer. AQ Cinnamon cable or Blue Jeans ethernet cable from the switch to server. That all made my streaming what I would call High End. Its really good.

FWIW, all my equipment is feed by a large wall mount Torus Isolation transformer

But, my vinyl has more textural detail and complexity. Its more natural and real. Instrument are more correct and present with a tangible life. Micro dynamics are better as well as bass impact and depth. I wash all my records. The new heavy vinyl are very very quiet. The old vinyl can have some surface noise. I might hear it between tracks. I do have records I like that have surface noise I hear in the music.

Its my experience that sources are as difficult to set up as landing speakers in a room. And not all components are made equal. I put my brand new Lino Channel D3.3 phono in last night. I put on a early 90s vinyl Mozart. Most likely a DDA pressing. I have never heard the level of musicality in my system I heard from that record. My vinyl finally touched a place I hear when I visit people with too tier well tuned gear. My vinyl is way beyond my digital now..

I still love my digital. But if I sit and back to back digital tracks to vinyl tracks, it is quickly apparent what the vinyl is doing and why its better. The only thing the digital consistently does better is very very low noise between tracks. And admitted ease of use and a broad selection of music. But if I want to sit and focus for 20 minutes while I sip a cocktail at the end of the day, I am very aware the vinyl, or tape, perform at a higher level than my digital.

Hi Kingsrex,
There‘s a whole lot of your post that I vibe with. I think your situation is very typical of a section of audiophiles. Excellent vinyl system giving great results, digital system very very adequate but not at the same level. I spent nearly 2 decades in exactly this position. Excellent turntables vs top CD players. And always the CD player fell short. No matter which master, the vinyl always sounded more real. Until recently. Since the implementation of a designed from the ground up local and remote streaming system where I discovered that thanks to the network link and various high performance components I have full control over sound quality based on a clear strategy of how the network sounds its best for the investment made. The goal of the network is to minimize traffic around the hi-fi related part of the network, minimize noise via protection and avoidance, minimize jitter/phase noise, minimize vibration, power supply noise, cable losses, using optimal screening, and an optimal cable loom. Further DCpower supplies and their DC cabling plays a massive role in how systems sound, so fully optimising them has a major influence. Finally servers and their sw plays an important role.
So in summary there doesn’t have to be anything wrong with even very excellent vinyl based systems for streaming to sound better. It just requires a highly optimised streaming set-up

 

[ddk]

I'm not sure I understand why your use of streaming-- which amounts to background wallpaper and YouTube -- adds anything to a discussion of streaming... other than to illustrate you have put no thought, effort or expense into it? And why would you? You have a great analog system for music listening and don't want or need anything else. So why bring up a thread about music streaming if you don't have any interest it?

Because I want to!
david

 

[PeterA]

I stream when I review system videos on WBF. Has anyone tried routing a TV or computer video signal through a streaming device to improve the audio quality of TV shows and these system videos? I ask because my wife and I are having increasing difficulty understanding some of the dialogue on these TV shows. It would be great if it was clearer and Bonzo’s system videos might sound better too.

 

[DMcVey]

Because I want to!
david

I love this answer. Good for you.

 

[dminches]

When audiophiles talk about streaming it is normally from lossless services like Qobuz, Tidal and Indigo. I don’t know many people with high quality systems who listen to YouTube and other lossy material for critical listening.

MP3s are never going to sound “great” through any hardware. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[PeterA]

When audiophiles talk about streaming it is normally from lossless services like Qobuz, Tidal and Indigo. I don’t know many people with high quality systems who listen to YouTube and other lossy material for critical listening.

MP3s are never going to sound “great” through any hardware. Garbage in, garbage out.

Will they sound better if routed through a “high end” streaming device?

 

[dminches]

Will they sound better if routed through a “high end” streaming device?

I don’t think much. The high end streaming device may reduce some of the noise but the data is lossy.

The only way to improve audio from TV sources is to set up a system where the dialog is isolated from the rest of the sound. You would need a processor for multi-channel audio.