MSB, EMM DACs

[Audire]

Audire, your reviews and comments are very enjoyable- thanks!
With regards to MSB, I have found they they take a couple of DAYS to come on song properly, if you let them get cold- it maybe worth tying your friend up in the basement so you can keep the Select II for a bit longer and see if it changes?

My dealer is going to try to get a MSB in for me to use for app a week or so. No guarantees, but if possible this way I will know more.

 

[facten]

Looking forward to your further comparisions

 

[Sampajanna]

Love the dac comparisons. Excellent system. congrats and enjoy!

 

[Yuen A.]

I must be having a dream as the sound is just too good!

Recently, we’ve added some new Class A amplification - Vitus SM-103 mono blocks. These are exquisite. With this addition our system was rebirthed. Everything is now cleaner, clearer and richer. Adding these new amps allows us to hear what was formerly unheard. It’s been a fantastic last few weeks!

With this improved clarity in sound I thought I’d begin testing DACs once again.

Today a friend brought over his MSB Select II. We previously tested his Select II against our EMM Labs and the latter just barely won the day for us. At the time I previously tested the two I stated that I could live with either for the rest of my life but gave a slight nod to the EMM Labs DA2V2 over the MSB Select II.

However, today with a five-hour listening evaluation things changed. With the better amplification the MSB and EMM DACs were ready for prime time. WOW, what great amazing sound! Back to back streaming the same ripped files in both (thru Aurender N30). So much fun! Incredible.

Today the EMM was our pick and this time by more than a mere edge. While both presentations changed for the better (i.e. cleaner power), today in comparison the EMM just soared. In direct comparison everything was improved. Better sound stage and resolution. An increased depth and dimensionality. We’re hearing an unbelievable harmonic richness and instrumental decay. So, Musical!

While EMM has all the detail like the MSB does, it also has the warmth of live music! And the music is ultimately what it’s all about!

We still have some more evaluations to do, primarily the Vitus MP-D201 MK.III DAC and the Thrax Maximinus Mk2S. The Ideon Absolute + Clock if I can get a set here. And since we’ve heard some very good things about the Horizon DAC if I go to a full on tube DAC the Horizon is on the menu as well. But locating one near N. FL to temporarily place in our system may prove difficult. Unfortunately, I can’t get down to S. FL to hear the WADAX.

The Thrax is kind of a strange beast having previously used MSB motherboards (+ some real tube goodness) in their design. They’ve since reportedly improved upon those MSB boards but are still using tubes … From what I’ve read about Thrax they have a unique build design in everything they offer. But the proof is in the pudding! How does it sound? I’ve been told one will be inbound to us soon.

This said, the Vitus Masterpiece DAC should also be a treat to experience esp with its updated master clock to keep each of the 16 DAC chips – 8 in parallel per channel in musical harmony. The system synergy with their amps which we already own - and the Vitus MP Line Stage we plan on purchasing - may prove unsurpassable.

The MSB Sound

Since many consider MSB as the standard reference against which all others should be measured, I will make some general comments of what we heard.

The MSB sound has incredible precision and resolve. It is controlled. And it’s very balanced top to bottom. It has depth and dimensionality. But for us it is overly analytical and too digital sounding. It’s not the full-bodied analogue sound we seek. It’s just not close enough to live sound for us …

Of course, others may feel differently and that’s perfectly fine. All of us have somewhat different tastes in what we enjoy hearing. That’s part of each of us enjoying our own individual journey!
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Hi Audire,

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on EMM Labs DA2 V2 vs MSB Select 2. The benefits of upgrading your power amp. once again provide ample proof that the EMM Labs DV2/DA2 benefits from top-notch components (including top-notch signal cables such as Ansuz Acoustics D-TC Supreme) elsewhere in the audio chain. Certainly your sound system will go up another notch with the inclusion of the highest quality footers such as Stillpoints Ultra 6 V2 or the CMS CenterStage2M, etc. Always remember that the quality of the reproduced sound will only be as good as the weakest link in the audio chain. Cheers!

 

[dcc]

Many thanks for this very well documented comparison and congrats for this superb system. I recently had the Thrax Maximinus MK2S on loan for a comparative listening against another high end DAC. The distributor in my country has also MSB in his portfolio and tends to consider the Thrax as the direct competitor of the MSB Reference DAC and not the Select.

 

[Gregm]

Thanks for this interesting story, Audire!
Regarding the Ideon Absolute, I find that it is necessary to keep it on at least 10hrs before it begins to reach the clarity level it's capable of.
Similarly, when I had the Select-2 I left in on all the time; for sure, the first 3-4hrs made a subjectively very obvious difference, the rest of the time simlpy feeding my own OCD !

 

[Audire]

Thanks for this interesting story, Audire!
Regarding the Ideon Absolute, I find that it is necessary to keep it on at least 10hrs before it begins to reach the clarity level it's capable of.
Similarly, when I had the Select-2 I left in on all the time; for sure, the first 3-4hrs made a subjectively very obvious difference, the rest of the time simlpy feeding my own OCD !

I understand the Ideon takes app 500 to fully burn in. Is this your experience?

Our MSB Select II testing only ran 5 hours after being moved from his home to ours. So, as previously stated it may not have time to settle in. Also, the fact you had to leave it on 3-4 hrs to get any magic means our tests weren’t complete IMO. My dealer is trying to get me another Select in for a longer test run.

I'm having trouble getting an Ideon in for testing. Maybe it will still work out. Only flaw I’ve read is that there is no remote.

I’ve been reading about the Vitus Masterpiece DAC. Some apparently enjoy the Vitus over the CH Precision DAC. I’m getting a Vitus MP Line Stage to go with our Vitus monos, so I’m thinking there may be better synergy using the Vitus DAC - which seems excellent (but I haven’t heard it).

Vitus MPD-201

I saw a video where some blind testing done between the MSB Select II and a Playback Designs MPD-8. While I didn’t enjoy listening to the reviewer, in the comments section the overwhelming selection of others was the Playback Design MPD-8. The main complaint - no soul in the MSB, which was essentially my conclusion after 5 hours. I may try to get one of these Playback Designs in for testing.

 

[Audire]

Many thanks for this very well documented comparison and congrats for this superb system. I recently had the Thrax Maximinus MK2S on loan for a comparative listening against another high end DAC. The distributor in my country has also MSB in his portfolio and tends to consider the Thrax as the direct competitor of the MSB Reference DAC and not the Select.

This is great information. Thank you. Our distributor thinks it surpasses the Select II. From descriptions it appears to me to be like the MSB, but not as analytical sounding. What I mean is that while I enjoy as much detail as possible, the way that detail is presented is just as important. We will soon see. I have one coming in for testing. Reading about how the Thrax Maximinus MK2S is built is very interesting.

 

[bryans]

The main complaint - no soul in the MSB

My advice is if the MSB has "no soul" remove it from your consideration.

 

[Gregm]

I understand the Ideon takes app 500 to fully burn in. Is this your experience?

Hmmm, admittedly I don't know -- sorry! The sound has improved significantly since I brought it home, but I haven't really checked esp as my unit is the one Ideon had at Munich hi-end, so I don't really know how many hrs it had on it already. Not many, I'd wager.

Our MSB Select II testing only ran 5 hours after being moved from his home to ours. So, as previously stated it may not have time to settle in. Also, the fact you had to leave it on 3-4 hrs to get any magic means our tests weren’t complete IMO. My dealer is trying to get me another Select in for a longer test run.

I'm having trouble getting an Ideon in for testing. Maybe it will still work out. Only flaw I’ve read is that there is no remote.

Maybe contacting Michael Vamos (Audioskies) directly would help.

I’ve been reading about the Vitus Masterpiece DAC. Some apparently enjoy the Vitus over the CH Precision DAC. I’m getting a Vitus MP Line Stage to go with our Vitus monos, so I’m thinking there may be better synergy using the Vitus DAC - which seems excellent (but I haven’t heard it).

Vitus MPD-201

I saw a video where some blind testing done between the MSB Select II and a Playback Designs MPD-8. While I didn’t enjoy listening to the reviewer, in the comments section the overwhelming selection of others was the Playback Design MPD-8. The main complaint - no soul in the MSB, which was essentially my conclusion after 5 hours. I may try to get one of these Playback Designs in for testing.

Never heard the Playback. OTOH, "soulless" doesn't relate to my experience with the Select. But then, there's no accounting for taste

 

[GSOphile]

I understand the Ideon takes app 500 to fully burn in. Is this your experience?

Our MSB Select II testing only ran 5 hours after being moved from his home to ours. So, as previously stated it may not have time to settle in. Also, the fact you had to leave it on 3-4 hrs to get any magic means our tests weren’t complete IMO. My dealer is trying to get me another Select in for a longer test run.

I'm having trouble getting an Ideon in for testing. Maybe it will still work out. Only flaw I’ve read is that there is no remote.

I’ve been reading about the Vitus Masterpiece DAC. Some apparently enjoy the Vitus over the CH Precision DAC. I’m getting a Vitus MP Line Stage to go with our Vitus monos, so I’m thinking there may be better synergy using the Vitus DAC - which seems excellent (but I haven’t heard it).

Vitus MPD-201

I saw a video where some blind testing done between the MSB Select II and a Playback Designs MPD-8. While I didn’t enjoy listening to the reviewer, in the comments section the overwhelming selection of others was the Playback Design MPD-8. The main complaint - no soul in the MSB, which was essentially my conclusion after 5 hours. I may try to get one of these Playback Designs in for testing.

Would love to hear your comments on the Playback Designs.

 

[Audire]

Would love to hear your comments on the Playback Designs.

Have you tried it yet? The guy in charge of PBs use to be Meitner‘s (of EMM Labs) boss at Sony. He supposed to know digital really well. I’m intrigued by the guys history, esp since I own EMM Labs and like what it does.

If you have any experience with PDs please comment further.

 

[facten]

while I enjoy as much detail as possible, the way that detail is presented is just as important

Well stated; and have the same view

 

[GSOphile]

Have you tried it yet? The guy in charge of PBs use to be Meitner‘s (of EMM Labs) boss at Sony. He supposed to know digital really well. I’m intrigued by the guys history, esp since I own EMM Labs and like what it does.

If you have any experience with PDs please comment further.

I have not (no dealers within about 500 miles), but have read nothing but positive comments/reviews.

 

[Sampajanna]

I share the same feelings as you guys. I have heard the Playback. It was stellar. If you listen to CDs and like the EMM, then I would say that Playback will almost certainly be your cup of tea. They make a transport/streamer/server that pairs with the MPD-8 and mates over a proprietary Plink connection. The two together are exquisite And have similar qualities as the EMM. I didn’t move in that direction as I dont listen to CDs and was already invested in Lampi. That said, I would be happy with the Select, EMM or Playback for life, as you mentioned. But I would also be even happier with the dac I own

My choice in all this is obvious; I made it with my wallet. Haven’t heard the Ideon or Wadax yet, though. I would love to. As I understand it, the Ideon doesnt need a remote because it has no preamp so you need a preamp with it, or at least that is highly recommended by the designers.

 

[Audire]

Hmmm, admittedly I don't know -- sorry! The sound has improved significantly since I brought it home, but I haven't really checked esp as my unit is the one Ideon had at Munich hi-end, so I don't really know how many hrs it had on it already. Not many, I'd wager.

Maybe contacting Michael Vamos (Audioskies) directly would help.

I wrote Michael an email. My dealer - Tony @ Ellington HiFi - knows him and is going to follow up my email with a request as well. Thanks for the contact!

 

[Ian B]

I've been comparing my DA2+NS1 combo with the cheaper MSB Discrete+Aurender N200 and the results are interesting. I think both DAC families posses paradoxical qualities that are hard to put into words: EMM Labs, hyper detailed and smooth, amazing soundstage, with few digital artifacts or analytical quality, but also a bit colder and leaner in the midrange and bass. MSB, rich tone, warm and also fairly dry, musical and full midrange and bass, flowing but also somewhat mechanical (compared to DA2).

I get the impression that higher up the MSB ladder you get comparable soundstage and detail to the EMM Labs, if a different way of presenting them. My question is, how much higher?

I've found the MSB Discrete to be more relaxing and musically correct (though the DA2 does somewhat incredible with vocals), but the scale and resolution are not on par. Pretty wild that people are comparing the DA2 to the Select II.

I guess my second question is if the added Pre brings the EMM Labs DACs more in line with the midrange and bass musicality of the MSB family? Probably the ideal for me would be DA2 smoothness, resolution and soundstage, but MSB tone and musical flow.