MSB Reference as an input to a Phono Pre

[MarkusBarkus]

...as a mash-up of a couple of questions and replies above, I think in the Extreme vs. MSB DD Celebrity Death Match, the Extreme wins.

However, I do agree that the DD add-on to the MSB Reference nudges out the various Taiko hardware updates to the server each on their own (USB card, switch/NIC) to-date.

Software (XDMS) is a closer call, probably depending on your set-up, likes, and scotch allocation. XDMS is a tasty addition. But, so is the DD.

Finally, I also agree we are getting down to "gilding the lily" type improvement at this point, but what the hell, why not! I am eager for the softly-advertised Taiko-MSB ProISL integration, and hope that actually comes to fruition. That would be a fine, tight integration for Taiko/MSB folks. Real potential there, IMO.

 

[ScottK]

softly-advertised Taiko-MSB ProISL integration

That I have not seen...would be very interesting. Nice summary!

 

[ScottK]

I finally took the plunge today by removing my VAC pre and replaced it with the MSB Reference. Installed my phono pre into the References Balanced analog in. Volume levels worked great with comfortable listening at 65-70. Interestingly the volume match with the Phono Analog in was almost identical. Did not expect that. The overall sound quality became more transparent as if the window had been cleared a bit. I also felt there was a sight loss in what folks call "meatier". I think this was a result of the clarity that was revealed. Soundstage was unaffected. In general it was a pretty neutral swap with the slight edge going to the MSB. Thus the VAC will be sold.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...it has been stated that Taiko could/would add a daughter-board option to their new "digital card" that would eliminate USB from the workflow, which Taiko contends is the bottleneck to next-level audio quality (my paraphrasing of the concept statements).

The Taiko server would output ProISL directly to the MSB device, no little MSB converter box required. If USB is the limitation Emile Bok contends it is, this could be a very nice option for Taiko/MSB users.

No hard-date has been noted recently for this project/product.

 

[Kingsrule]

Not sure MSB is on board with this and even if they are it would be forever by the time they implement......

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...probably influenced by the actual implementation. If the Extreme is just outputting I2S signal per an MSB spec, couldn't the existing devices just ingest it as they do now, just without the conversion (USB to I2S) in the small MSB box? Educated guess with a does of speculation. Would be nice! But yes, I understand your skepticism re:timeline @Kingsrule

 

[csr78]

I’m chiming in here as I noticed you all have similar equipment to me and I am considering a DAC upgrade to an MSB and I need some advice.

I want to upgrade my Terminator Plus/Gaia combo to an MSB or similar. Perhaps even remove the BHK Pre from the equation if the MSB can handle the Phono Stage input and a fixed volume “home theater” input like the BHK Pre does.

But the main plan is to get more detail, and a bigger, deeper sound stage from my DAC. I am considering the Chord DAVE with M Scaler, one of the MSB DACs (but I don’t know which one), or a dCS Bartok Apex or Rossini Apex.

In a perfect world, I could borrow all the models and test them out in my system. Obviously, that isn’t happening. So, I am looking to you all for whatever info, anecdotes, comparisons or experiences you have to help me on my journey. See my gear in signature below if that helps.

 

[Googaliser]

But the main plan is to get more detail, and a bigger, deeper sound stage from my DAC. I am considering the Chord DAVE with M Scaler, one of the MSB DACs (but I don’t know which one), or a dCS Bartok Apex or Rossini Apex.

Hi - dCS has a very loyal following and many happy owners. I therefore approached an in-home MSB / dCS shoot-out (Rossini Apex vs. MSB Select II) with a very open mind despite the price differences. In fact - as a longtime fan of dCS, I was excited about the possibility to save some money..... Result: I kept the MSB and didn't bother to try the Vivaldi (the difference was *that* large). I don't know how that translates to the lower tier models of MSB's line-up - but I suspect much of the magic I hear from the Select will still be there. Many say the Reference is the sweet spot in the line-up in case that is within budget. But again - there are many very happy dCS owners and we all hear differently - so I would just very strongly suggest that you do try and demo the MSB. I suspect you may stop your search there and keep the demo unit ;-)

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I’m chiming in here as I noticed you all have similar equipment to me and I am considering a DAC upgrade to an MSB and I need some advice.

Can’t say for dCS or Chord but I fell in love with MSB immediately after a home audition.

New to digital playback I started my journey less than two years ago, yes I was a vinyl guy before!
I loved PS Audio gear and Paul philosophy, it seems like you. I had the DS DAC MK I and beta unit of the MK II. I purchased the MSB Premier for the naturalness and clarity sound it delivers, a sort of effortless and dynamics that reminds me analog playback (similar but different). Then I replaced my M1200 monos with the MSB S202, once again after a home audition (that is mandatory IMO), without regrets: the synergy MSB DAC+MSB AMP is amazing, so I don’t use anymore my BHK Pre (other than for vinyl reproduction).
1. If affordable for you I highly recommend MSB DAC + AMP
2. The Reference with Pre module is my dream, you could sell the BHK Pre to save money
3. Whatever MSB you prefer, go for the USB Pro external module, i
4. I had like you Zenith MK3+PhoenixNET and PhoenixUSB, and prefer Sense over Roon: also the server makes a difference, I went for the Statement Next Gen (keeping the PhoenixNET) and MSB products perfectly matches Innuos USB philosophy IMO.

 

[csr78]

Can’t say for dCS or Chord but I fell in love with MSB immediately after a home audition.

New to digital playback I started my journey less than two years ago, yes I was a vinyl guy before!
I loved PS Audio gear and Paul philosophy, it seems like you. I had the DS DAC MK I and beta unit of the MK II. I purchased the MSB Premier for the naturalness and clarity sound it delivers, a sort of effortless and dynamics that reminds me analog playback (similar but different). Then I replaced my M1200 monos with the MSB S202, once again after a home audition (that is mandatory IMO), without regrets: the synergy MSB DAC+MSB AMP is amazing, so I don’t use anymore my BHK Pre (other than for vinyl reproduction).
1. If affordable for you I highly recommend MSB DAC + AMP
2. The Reference with Pre module is my dream, you could sell the BHK Pre to save money
3. Whatever MSB you prefer, go for the USB Pro external module, i
4. I had like you Zenith MK3+PhoenixNET and PhoenixUSB, and prefer Sense over Roon: also the server makes a difference, I went for the Statement Next Gen (keeping the PhoenixNET) and MSB products perfectly matches Innuos USB philosophy IMO.

Regarding using the MSB for a preamp, can you tell me if it supports the "home theater mode" volume lock like the BHK Pre? It allows you to send the front left and right output of a surround sound receiver through so that the same front speakers and amps can be used in a mixed mode (theater or audiophile stereo).

Ultimately, I would need to run the turntable, the theater receiver and the Innuos through the DAC/Preamp.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Sorry I use the Premier DAC and it doesn’t sport a Pre module at all.

 

[ScottK]

I’m chiming in here as I noticed you all have similar equipment to me and I am considering a DAC upgrade to an MSB and I need some advice.

I want to upgrade my Terminator Plus/Gaia combo to an MSB or similar. Perhaps even remove the BHK Pre from the equation if the MSB can handle the Phono Stage input and a fixed volume “home theater” input like the BHK Pre does.

But the main plan is to get more detail, and a bigger, deeper sound stage from my DAC. I am considering the Chord DAVE with M Scaler, one of the MSB DACs (but I don’t know which one), or a dCS Bartok Apex or Rossini Apex.

In a perfect world, I could borrow all the models and test them out in my system. Obviously, that isn’t happening. So, I am looking to you all for whatever info, anecdotes, comparisons or experiences you have to help me on my journey. See my gear in signature below if that helps.

Sorry I'm late to the party but I've been on the top of Mount Leconte for the past couple of days. We do indeed have similar gear. I went from your DAC to a MSB Reference and it was a significant improvement in SQ. I also have a Vinyl rig that I now run through the Reference preamp direct to my amps. Love the sound so much that I find I'm listening to more vinyl now! Go figure....phono pre feeding the MSB. I had been using a VAC Sig preamp but felt it did not contribute to the SQ thus its for sale. I know there is a lot of contriversey about whether to use a pre or not. The conclusion of the "experts" is its better to have one in IF its of reference grade quality (i.e. $25K plus). It strikes me as excessive to have all the unused input capabilities of a standard Pre when I just needed one extra for my turntable. Plus my system has never sounded better. YMMV as always.

 

[csr78]

Sorry I'm late to the party but I've been on the top of Mount Leconte for the past couple of days. We do indeed have similar gear. I went from your DAC to a MSB Reference and it was a significant improvement in SQ. I also have a Vinyl rig that I now run through the Reference preamp direct to my amps. Love the sound so much that I find I'm listening to more vinyl now! Go figure....phono pre feeding the MSB. I had been using a VAC Sig preamp but felt it did not contribute to the SQ thus its for sale. I know there is a lot of contriversey about whether to use a pre or not. The conclusion of the "experts" is its better to have one in IF its of reference grade quality (i.e. $25K plus). It strikes me as excessive to have all the unused input capabilities of a standard Pre when I just needed one extra for my turntable. Plus my system has never sounded better. YMMV as always.

I know this is a tough question to answer, but when you say going from the Terminator Plus to the MSB Reference was a significant improvement, can you describe how much? For example, was it "noticeable" or "undeniable" or "no way I can go back after hearing that" or "Wow, how is this even possible" or did it bring tears to your eyes?

 

[ScottK]

I know this is a tough question to answer,

Yes it is. First, looking at your system your biggest improvement might come from a speaker upgrade. I recently upgraded mine and then started to look at the rest of the system. I own the A-5's in a second system and love them but you might need to make a bigger jump. I'm in the camp that speakers are the most important component (by a large margin) then the source. As to the MSB I'd say it was 30% better than the Terminator. Much warmer fuller sound with lots of air (what we all want). I bought my unit used. It's a seven year old design and to buy new would be tough as it costs as much a a BMW. Yet even with this upgrade I think my vinyl still, in most cases, sounds better. This hobby is truly a "hamster wheel" that is hard to get off of. And by the way I can listen to some songs on a Bose Bluetooth speaker and it can "bring tears to my eyes".

 

[csr78]

First, looking at your system your biggest improvement might come from a speaker upgrade.

I agree with you that the speakers are the biggest bang for your buck. And you're right, the next move would be better speakers. I absolutely love my Magico A3. So I think the next logical step, to be worthwhile, is the Magico M2. But that'$ crazy talk.

I think the reason I gravitated towards researching a new DAC is because it is by far the easiest thing to replace. The streamer would involve transferring my music, the turntable involves dealing with cartridges, the amps are super heavy and the preamp is involved with dealing with a wire nest of plugs and new remotes etc.

Ultimately, what I really need to do is get a loaner for something significantly superior to my Terminator+ and hear how much of a difference there is, and then decide where to put my dollars. I have heard the Magico M2s alongside the A3s and that is definitely one of my dream upgrades.

 

[divertiti]

I agree with you that the speakers are the biggest bang for your buck. And you're right, the next move would be better speakers. I absolutely love my Magico A3. So I think the next logical step, to be worthwhile, is the Magico M2. But that'$ crazy talk.

I think the reason I gravitated towards researching a new DAC is because it is by far the easiest thing to replace. The streamer would involve transferring my music, the turntable involves dealing with cartridges, the amps are super heavy and the preamp is involved with dealing with a wire nest of plugs and new remotes etc.

Ultimately, what I really need to do is get a loaner for something significantly superior to my Terminator+ and hear how much of a difference there is, and then decide where to put my dollars. I have heard the Magico M2s alongside the A3s and that is definitely one of my dream upgrades.

I agree with Scott, I'd do the speakers before the DAC. Terminator Plus with Gaia is quite good, of course not at MSB Reference level, but after the speaker upgrade (and having them properly set up), you can truly evaluate any in-home demos.

Don't need to go to the M2, the Magico S3 2023 is incredibly close in performance by all reports (possibly slightly less refined) for a much lower retail price of 45K, work with a good dealer and you might be able to negotiate a decent discount as well. Definitely attainable, and they are damn damn good.

 

[F208Frank]

I really liked the S3s defined bass but the mids despite very clean were not engaging to me. It is a very impressive speaker regardless. I love how they look. Weapons.