By chance, has anyone heard the MSB Reference DAC (with the Reference Digital Director and Femto33 clock) and the Playback Designs MPD-8 Dac? If you have, would appreciate your sharing your impressions. Am trying to make a decision on my next DAC, and have narrowed it down to these 2. (FYI - i had another posting asking about the EMM DA2 v2 and the PlayBack Designs, and i've decided on the MPD-8, and now it's down to the MSB or PBD). Thanks.
MSB Reference DAC and PlayBack Systems MPD-8
- Thread starter longinc
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@longinc I went from a Discrete, to a Premier and now to a Reference DAC in over a 4 year time period.
My Reference is fully loaded with Femto33 clock connected via Pro ISL to my Antipodes CX transport. No Digital Director.
Does It sound very good? Yes without question.
Is it the objectively better DAC than the Premier? Yes definitely.
Is it better in terms of emotional engagement? YMMV but it is a no for me. I didn't feel that the Reference took me to new places that the Premier DAC already hasn't.
Haven't heard the Playback Designs DAC but who knows maybe someday?
My Reference is fully loaded with Femto33 clock connected via Pro ISL to my Antipodes CX transport. No Digital Director.
Does It sound very good? Yes without question.
Is it the objectively better DAC than the Premier? Yes definitely.
Is it better in terms of emotional engagement? YMMV but it is a no for me. I didn't feel that the Reference took me to new places that the Premier DAC already hasn't.
Haven't heard the Playback Designs DAC but who knows maybe someday?
I’ve heard both and choose to buy the MSB Reference not because it was better than the PBD but it was on par plus included a built in pre amp eliminating the need for a separate box. Additionally, I bought the msb Renderer module eliminating the need for a streamer. So, three boxes in one. I do have a Rose 150b streamer connected to the MSB Reference via USB Pro connection but prefer the sound thru the Renderer and this allows me to control the volume of my system thru Roon, both the DAC and the turntable connected to the MSB reference DAC thru the analogue inputs. And the MSB reference is just about perfect. FWIW, I plan to upgrade to the MSB cascade later this year and MSB trade program is very generous. If you choose the PBD, you will love it. But it will need a pre amp and streamer separates. Good luck with your decision.
Thank you for sharing your impressions of the MSB's. DO you happen to have an analog/TT front end too? If so, how does the MSB compare?
Thank you - super helpful. When you had compared the 2, were you using the Digital Director with the MSB Reference?
Were they sonically comparable? I understand there is a level of subjectivity since we have different ears, but... Did one sound more analog-like and more "natural sounding"? I tend to gravitate towards natural sounding tonality & the sound of un-amplified music VS hi-fi impressive sounding.
My setup has no analog - purely digital.
So you are thinking of getting a used MSB Reference DAC? Because it has been discontinued and you can only get them on the used market.
Good morning I have heard both devices. And my preference is for playback. The MS B is of absolute precision and has a quality in the transients that can hardly be surpassed. The playback somehow connects you more deeply to the music and to my ears it is more musical. Obviously in this field everything is relative, it also depends on the system you have, if it is a very revealing system I would go hands down for playback while if your system tends to amber, I would go for the MSB. If I can give you some advice at this time, I would go for the new Taiko with the analog output. I have some friends who are strongly tempted to leave the msb top combination with the digital director and Taiko extreme to go for the new taiko with its analog output
Thank you for your listening impressions of both. Much appreciated. On the Taiko, I’m not fully getting it. It’s a music server and one would still need a DAC, right? At least on their website, I am not seeing the new Taiko that you are referring to.
Yes, in fact taiko is a server. But with the latest release it also created an analog interface. That has put many people in crisis with their super expensive Dacs. If you browse the posts on this forum, you will easily realize this, even if for easy to understand reasons everything is said in a whisper. The only comments that are clear (probably) is that they give a step up in performance are those of those who have combined the taiko olympus with the Dac Lampizator360 with their new digital interface. I personally have not had the pleasure of listening to it, but for this I rely on the comments of some old forumers, people whose statements I have previously had absolute confirmation of. But you know, time passes for everyone and so I can't tell you if today they have become deaf. However, I hope that in May at the Moc in Munich I can listen to this combination.
This is hard to understand.
Taiko now has a all in one server/DAC? Digital in, analog out. No need for a DAC?
Can you point to a thread about this new product?
Thanks.
Rex,
unless you have been under a rock for the last 2 years (or bought a farm on an island
) it's hard to miss there has been a Taiko Olympus thread going on for the last 18 months and it now has over 5300 posts. as a Taiko fan boy i do read it from time to time as i have an interest.lately there has been posts made by Taiko Olympus owners comparing their dacs (of various brands) to the on board Olympus analog output (which is how they describe the on board dac in the Olympus). many of those posts started to appear a month or so ago. you have to sift through pages and pages to find them.
here is one such post. there are lots of details to dig into to understand the terms and acronyms they throw around. so it's a bit tedious to digest it and you have to to take your time and learn about it. Rex; honestly not sure you have the patience to wade into it.
reading that thread it seems that in most cases the analog dac (which is almost 'free' to add in the Olympus pkg) inside the Taiko Olympus seems to mostly equal or surpass any of the other dacs so far. i'm over-simplifying for sure.....many times the internal dac is just a bit different. and tubed dacs have their fans for sure. and maybe there is a cut-off point where the more spendy separate dacs are better.....for now. my guess is that down the road Taiko will put more energy into improving this internal dac and make the issue more clear. right now Taiko needs to tread lightly to not alienate all the dac makers and other dac brand fan boys/owners.
bottom line is that servers and dacs both from one manufacturer potentially have serious interface advantages over other approaches. fast-forward a year or two from now my guess is that more people will be trending toward the Taiko analog dac than toward separate dac brands.....of those who are going the Taiko route. but it's hard to know for sure.
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At the moment many of my friends (forumers) are waiting because Taiko has had some difficulties with deliveries. My feeling is that as soon as Taiko has processed the first wave of orders and the waiting times for deliveries become acceptable again, the market will be flooded with many used high-end Dacs. You can already find everything in the digital field since the progress of technology is running at crazy levels. Imagine what will happen, if as the rumors suggest, you can have an all-in-one device that gives you super performance for around 60,000 euros. As for the comparison between digital and analog, I won't comment so as not to open yet another hornet's nest. The only consideration I feel like making is that a good analog keeps your economic investment safer over the years. If today you spend a lot of money on digital, in the next 10/15 years when you resell it you will buy a handful of peanuts while for analog you can recover a good 40/50%. As for the absolute value of performance, I leave it to others to express their opinion. The ideal would be to have unlimited funds to lose and invest in both digital and analog. If I can give you a suggestion, invest some time in fine-tuning what you already have, it is certainly difficult to get a golden carriage from a pumpkin, but listening to a friend of mine's system a few days ago left me speechless. My friend, who is very picky, has a system with a preamp with integrated phono at an almost ridiculous price (12,000 euros at the list price) when compared to today's electronics, but with his enormous patience and good ears today he manages to make everything sound incredible, so much so that it makes our professional musician friends (orchestra conductors who know very well how a violin, an oboe or an English horn should sound) shed copious tears.
Interesting.
I have never read the Taiko thread. Not of interest to me.
I see a lot of budget devices that are both. Like a Hifi Rose. Or NAD. Lots of them. Even MSB does it the other way. The streamer in the DAC. I had not heard of one in the Taiko. Makes sense it would work well and play as good as most any SS DAC. Its a chip. A chip that wants a good power supply. And it wants a short quality conection between the chip and digital stream. It won't voice like a tube DAC. Not inless Taiko built an outboard tube power supply to feed the DAC chip only. Could be done. And may have higher reliability and noise specs than currently manufactured tube DAC options.
Rex,
unless you have been under a rock for the last 2 years (or bought a farm on an island
I have never read the Taiko thread. Not of interest to me.
I see a lot of budget devices that are both. Like a Hifi Rose. Or NAD. Lots of them. Even MSB does it the other way. The streamer in the DAC. I had not heard of one in the Taiko. Makes sense it would work well and play as good as most any SS DAC. Its a chip. A chip that wants a good power supply. And it wants a short quality conection between the chip and digital stream. It won't voice like a tube DAC. Not inless Taiko built an outboard tube power supply to feed the DAC chip only. Could be done. And may have higher reliability and noise specs than currently manufactured tube DAC options.
clearly you were curious about it and wanted someone to explain.if you are active on some digital threads and want to understand where things are going, then the Taiko Olympus discussion is relevant.....whether you are in the market for more spendy digital or not. Olympus buyers or intenders own all sorts of dacs.....mostly more expensive ones for sure. but not all. and the direction of an exotic server with a unique interface with an on board dac is one version of where things are going.
many current 'uber' dac intenders are watching Taiko and figuring to bypass an expensive dac and just do the Olympus by itself instead and bet on the Taiko dac and future upgrades to it, as being plenty good enough. but info is incomplete....so we all watch for how it goes. Taiko does need to solve some of their logistical issues too.
with streaming as dominant; the server side and the interface are pretty major performance factors and where the action seems to be.
but these devices are not in the realm of the Taiko effort. i don't want to try and relate the Taiko Olympus to the Varese or Wadax Reference. i'm not qualified to go down that road. but it's more out there like those. those cheaper dacs with some sort of Roon end point or one box solutions are not pushing any tech boundaries or offering exceptional performance. they are simply price point products in one chassis. not saying they don't sound good, these days digital sounding pretty good is not any big deal. not dissing those products either. they are legit products and darn good ways to go. but not anywhere near the current cutting edge.
for now the Taiko Olympus on board dac, which they call the analog out, is said to be just a pedestrian level dac benefiting from the interface elegance. i don't know. not heard it.
hard to predict how far down the dac road Taiko might go. my only point would be that Emile is a very serious guy who thinks big. tubes? not sure that's in Emile's dna.
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dearest Mike, it's nice to find someone who adds a more pragmatic vision to the philosophical approach. Given your current wandering, it's not like you could turn your camper into an amphibious vehicle and pop over to the Moc in Munich in May. Maybe it would be a good opportunity to compare the analog output of Taiko with other Dacs, unfortunately I don't think that will ever happen publicly for commercial reasons. For this reason, luckily for us, there is WBF and its forumers who will soon give us news. All that's missing is that after msb's blunder of having put the select on the market, they introduced an intermediate product with a better sound, resulting in a lot of anger among those who had spent double the price for an outdated product at home. Without forgetting some other blunders made by DCS. After all, it's quite normal for the student to surpass the master and those who stop are lost, the magic of technological research
if you are active on some digital threads and want to understand where things are going, then the Taiko Olympus discussion is relevant.....whether you are in the market for more spendy digital or not. Olympus buyers or intenders own all sorts of dacs.....mostly more expensive ones for sure. but not all. and the direction of an exotic server with a unique interface with an on board dac is one version of where things are going.
many current 'uber' dac intenders are watching Taiko and figuring to bypass an expensive dac and just do the Olympus by itself instead and bet on the Taiko dac and future upgrades to it, as being plenty good enough. but info is incomplete....so we all watch for how it goes. Taiko does need to solve some of their logistical issues too.
with streaming as dominant; the server side and the interface are pretty major performance factors and where the action seems to be.
but these devices are not in the realm of the Taiko effort. i don't want to try and relate the Taiko Olympus to the Varese or Wadax Reference. i'm not qualified to go down that road. but it's more out there like those. those cheaper dacs with some sort of Roon end point or one box solutions are not pushing any tech boundaries or offering exceptional performance. they are simply price point products in one chassis. not saying they don't sound good, these days digital sounding pretty good is not any big deal. not dissing those products either. they are legit products and darn good ways to go. but not anywhere near the current cutting edge.
for now the Taiko Olympus on board dac, which they call the analog out, is said to be just a pedestrian level dac benefiting from the interface elegance. i don't know. not heard it.
hard to predict how far down the dac road Taiko might go. my only point would be that Emile is a very serious guy who thinks big. tubes? not sure that's in Emile's dna.
I so often hear about MSB and DCS being king of the heap, I wonder about the Playback and other more affordable DAC, so I looked at the thread. Someone else dropped the Taiko with onboard DAC comment that I thought interesting.
but these devices are not in the realm of the Taiko effort. i don't want to try and relate the Taiko Olympus to the Varese or Wadax Reference. i'm not qualified to go down that road. but it's more out there like those. those cheaper dacs with some sort of Roon end point or one box solutions are not pushing any tech boundaries or offering exceptional performance. they are simply price point products in one chassis. not saying they don't sound good, these days digital sounding pretty good is not any big deal. not dissing those products either. they are legit products and darn good ways to go. but not anywhere near the current cutting edge.
MSB and the Digital Director. Isn't that a top level DAC with built in streaming? Wouldn't that be another device that may be surpass Taiko performance. And the MSB has a built in preamp I hear many prefer over a stand alone preamp. Another piece of equipment eliminated from the rack and expense to your budget.
I don't know why other manufacturer are not more onboard with this design. Even a built in Memory player built into the DAC to manage files on a hard drive would be a step in the right direction and probably superior performance to streaming since a memory player is about as similar to a CD drive performance as you can get.
hard to rank dacs without an actual head to head. not saying you are wrong, but doubt it's quite that simple. our minds like to connect dots and try and project how things should look. but then when we are faced with a head to head..........are our minds open to hear it? or do our eye's or biases get in the way? our fan-boy tendencies get in the way.
i do agree that the MSB Cascade is likely a top performer below the Varese and Wadax. how close might it be to the Varese? or the Wadax? no idea. the Cascade does not have a server....yet. then MSB has the Sentinel lurking behind the Cascade. dCS has has the Vivaldi Apex. it's in there somewhere. Playback? people that love it, really love it. i liked it but did not love it when i heard it. and some others in the upper echelon too. how good is the server used in each case? does using the Olympus boost these dacs higher?
all this musing is just idle talk until we have a head to head. and then there is the Taiko Olympus analog dac and that part.
my ears have not loved on board preamps. they never can rise to the level of my separate preamp. they win in transparency, but lose the realism battle when we get to presence, weight, scale and dynamics. but certainly they are good enough to be serious considerations. but if you are ringing the bell with ultimate digital you want ultimate preamp performance too. and not all stand alone preamps are created equal.
however; when assembling a whole system and considering logistics, using a preamp on board the digital makes for an elegant set-up. a matter of priorities. maybe better digital, compromise the preamp, less rack space and fewer cables. better speakers, better lifestyle look. no wrong answers.
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The MSB Reference DAC + Digital Director is 2-3 x the price of the MPD-8 or MPD-8 AI (analog inputs) first of all just to get the perspectives right in terms of pricing. The Reference DAC is also soon to be discontinued.
Other than that, Massimo66 makes a valid comparison in between MSB and Playback Designs in terms of characteristics earlier in this thread. I would also recommend to add the MPD-X streamer over P-link if going the Playback Designs route.
If your budget exceeds €/$50.000 I would suggest to wait for the upcoming WADAX Studio DAC which will be revealed this year. Based on my experience with the Studio Player, this is going to be something very special indeed.
I would also add the new Master Fidelity NADAC D at approx. €/$29.000 to the mix.
/ Marcus
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