Munich High-End 2018 Ron Report: Conclusion and Favorite Systems

[Believe High Fidelity]

If only it was that simple, lol.
I “strongly “ suspect that the main reason that Alon doesn’t exhibit his speakers with tube gear, except for the big CAT’s, which are basically brutes in the tube world, is due to the fact that his designs are far too difficult a load for perhaps all other tube amps to drive ( and naturally, he knows this!) Adding more cabinets to his design would only serve to increase this problem.
IMHO, most speaker designers know what works well with their designs, as far as upstream gear is concerned...and then they leave it to the dealer to disseminate that information....

I actually think it is that simple. Have chatted with former Magico employees who went to other audio companies and he just likes SS. If you have been to Brooks Berdan that have several rooms that were all driven by Jadis PP and tube front ends (may have changed it has been a while since I visited). While a little laid back to me it sounded much better compared to many Magicos I have heard using the best SS equivalents.

Even with Wilson which is not my cup o tea, it has always sounded much better to many with VTL;s and AR gear vs a SS counterpart.

 

[DaveyF]

I actually think it is that simple. Have chatted with former Magico employees who went to other audio companies and he just likes SS. If you have been to Brooks Berdan that have several rooms that were all driven by Jadis PP and tube front ends (may have changed it has been a while since I visited). While a little laid back to me it sounded much better compared to many Magicos I have heard using the best SS equivalents.

Even with Wilson which is not my cup o tea, it has always sounded much better to many with VTL;s and AR gear vs a SS counterpart.

Are you saying that the Jadis amps at B.B. can drive the Magico’s??.....
This would be a MAJOR revelation to me....as I wouldn’t even consider that a consideration in any possible way. Even the larger JA200’s or the insane JA500mk2’s, would surprise me. Perhaps we should make this clear...when I talk about drive a speaker, I am certainly NOT saying that the speaker won’t play with the amp up front....almost all speakers will make sound with the incorrect amp upstream. However, as a very good a’phile friend of mine found out the hard way, if you try and utilize an underpowered/unsuitable amp with a very inefficient speaker, the result is far less than satisfactory....to most everybody(or as you say...”a little laid back”). Maybe YMMV??
BTW, if you are stating that BB runs the Jadis amps with Magico’s, please do elaborate as to what model of each...amp,speaker.

 

[DaveyF]

One last thing to ponder, Believe High Fidelity.....
My well heeled friend who bought the under powered amp from his dealer and who suffered the major $$ loss upon unloading his amp due to the major incompatibility between his speakers and his tube amp (also very costly speakers...and which he also bought from said same dealer) —— do you think he is ecstatic with this dealer?? Do you think he will EVER do business with this very same dealer again??
Well.....:b

 

[morricab]

I just added to my original post above that “If the Magico M6 had been driven by high power tubes and had been playing analog that system likely also would have been a favorite.”

Even on solid-state (I have never cared for the sound of any Magico speaker I have ever heard driven by solid-state) I could tell that the M6 is Alon’s best effort to date, and that the M6 is truly a great loudspeaker. Now all he has to do is in invert an M6 on another M6 and create his ultimate, state of the art, dynamic driver M-T-M Magico to compete directly with Rockport Arrakis, VSA Ultra 11, Goebel Divin Majestic and Gryphon Trident II.

I tried to take it as it comes and not what I think it could have sounded like if X, Y or Z. I did take note if a system sounded better or worse than the year before...if it was the same.

 

[morricab]

If only it was that simple, lol.
I “strongly “ suspect that the main reason that Alon doesn’t exhibit his speakers with tube gear, except for the big CAT’s, which are basically brutes in the tube world, is due to the fact that his designs are far too difficult a load for perhaps all other tube amps to drive ( and naturally, he knows this!) Adding more cabinets to his design would only serve to increase this problem.
IMHO, most speaker designers know what works well with their designs, as far as upstream gear is concerned...and then they leave it to the dealer to disseminate that information....

I am not convinced that most speaker designers have a clue what is best sounding for their speakers (Earl Geddes used a cheap Pioneer receiver, for example). They know speakers and many think that if the speaker is right that little else matters. I remember Wilson stating something very much like this and claiming they could get great sound with very cheap gear...I would have loved to laugh at that sound...

 

[morricab]

One last thing to ponder, Believe High Fidelity.....
My well heeled friend who bought the under powered amp from his dealer and who suffered the major $$ loss upon unloading his amp due to the major incompatibility between his speakers and his tube amp (also very costly speakers...and which he also bought from said same dealer) —— do you think he is ecstatic with this dealer?? Do you think he will EVER do business with this very same dealer again??
Well.....:b

Your friend has no one to blame but himself. Did he not demo the amp on his speakers before buying?? If not, shame on him. All amps with the same power rating are not the same either. You should know this. I have put a good 25 watt SET on Thiels and it sounded more powerful than 130 watt PP monos or 100 watt hybrids. How an amp handles dynamics matters more than how it measures steady state. CATs happen to be both powerful steady state and dynamic...but a pair of NAT SE2SE (70 watts) outperformed a CAT JL2 Signature on a pair of big Apogees (Grands being driven like Divas). That was not totally expected but that's what happened. The guy sold the CAT and kept the NAT. The somewhat modest VAC 30/30 will drive well a lot of speakers that conventional wisdom says it won't.

FWIW, a Jadis JA80 or bigger will easily drive Magicos to louder than most people would want to listen. They are not super difficult to drive.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Where is sound of Tao these days? He had the Anima and loved them

Hi Ked, I still love them and I wish I had them around, but I only had them on loan here for a few months. Just finished texting a mate however to say it was about time he got a pair in so I can revisit them.

I do have a pair of Harbeth 40.2s on order for the new house to keep the Maggies company tho. I’m working my way thru to the trifecta... a pair of horns will be the final leg of the journey for sure.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Are you saying that the Jadis amps at B.B. can drive the Magico’s??.....
This would be a MAJOR revelation to me....as I wouldn’t even consider that a consideration in any possible way. Even the larger JA200’s or the insane JA500mk2’s, would surprise me. Perhaps we should make this clear...when I talk about drive a speaker, I am certainly NOT saying that the speaker won’t play with the amp up front....almost all speakers will make sound with the incorrect amp upstream. However, as a very good a’phile friend of mine found out the hard way, if you try and utilize an underpowered/unsuitable amp with a very inefficient speaker, the result is far less than satisfactory....to most everybody(or as you say...”a little laid back”). Maybe YMMV??
BTW, if you are stating that BB runs the Jadis amps with Magico’s, please do elaborate as to what model of each...amp,speaker.

Confused?? I thought we were talking about Alon and his preference to SS?

I make no remarks to gear I don't sell. Folks are biased enough as it is to their preferences. Suffice to say that any amp can typically drive a speaker. How well it does is another matter entirely. If I am saying anything is that Magico sounds better to me with tubes.

Not sure if you were in Marina Del Rey (I think that is the location) for the Gothenburg Odin demo. 102db rated speaker and they tried to drive it with a 10w or 15w tube amp that sounded terrible. Eventually they were able to get a 100W PP to drive enough to have a decent demo.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

One last thing to ponder, Believe High Fidelity.....
My well heeled friend who bought the under powered amp from his dealer and who suffered the major $$ loss upon unloading his amp due to the major incompatibility between his speakers and his tube amp (also very costly speakers...and which he also bought from said same dealer) —— do you think he is ecstatic with this dealer?? Do you think he will EVER do business with this very same dealer again??
Well.....:b

Nothing to ponder on Davey. This is one of the most retold stories in the audio business. Who is to blame dealer or buyer? Don't know all the facts and it is usually the dealer, but suffice to say when you are dropping some big money on gear you take it for a test drive like an automobile if you don't want to have any regrets.

 

[bonzo75]

The jadis 200 sound excellent on the M3s at Rhapsody in NY. And potential buyers can compare it to Vitus and Soulution, goldmund, etc

 

[microstrip]

(...) Manufacturers lie about speaker sensitivity. Amp designers lie about watts and performance. Buy Aries Cerat

Sorry, IMHO accusing people of lying and smiles in the same paragraph do not fit.

The usual audio specifications are ambiguous and meaningless unless they are complemented with additional data and experience. We know about that since long.

 

[Al M.]

Manufacturers lie about speaker sensitivity. Amp designers lie about watts and performance. Buy Aries Cerat

This is a very bad, dubious way of promoting the Aries Cerat brand. Be careful before I lose respect for you really quickly.

 

[Rhapsody]

The jadis 200 sound excellent on the M3s at Rhapsody in NY. And potential buyers can compare it to Vitus and Soulution, goldmund, etc

Thx Ked, Yes the JA200's or the I88 Jadis integrated have no issue whatsoever driving the M3's in a 700 sq. ft. room.

I also did two demos this week with the 32 Watt Kondo Overture (El34/PP) with the M3's and at normal listening levels in the same room sounded amazing to the customers. One of the customers bought an Overture based on the demo and the other is considering the Overture/M3's because of the synergy.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I remember Wilson stating something very much like this and claiming they could get great sound with very cheap gear...(...)

Curiously it is true, although I can imagine that such sound is not your cup of tea. A good friend got great sound with some Denon's and my old pair of Wilson Audio system V. Wilson's sounded excellent with Parasound AV amplifiers.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

Sorry, IMHO accusing people of lying and smiles in the same paragraph do not fit.

The usual audio specifications are ambiguous and meaningless unless they are complemented with additional data and experience. We know about that since long.

Not an accusation it is a fact. if you have read any issues of Stereophile and have seen the measurements section there have been times a plenty that claimed FR, impedance, sensitivity, watts, etc do not live up to the claims after being put on the test bench.

 

[ack]

Not an accusation it is a fact. if you have read any issues of Stereophile and have seen the measurements section there have been times a plenty that claimed FR, impedance, sensitivity, watts, etc do not live up to the claims after being put on the test bench.

So should we only buy Aries Cerat and none of the other brands you represent? Do you realize how stupid these comments are?

 

[microstrip]

Not an accusation it is a fact. if you have read any issues of Stereophile and have seen the measurements section there have been times a plenty that claimed FR, impedance, sensitivity, watts, etc do not live up to the claims after being put on the test bench.

I will not enter a debate on you ambiguous statement used for promoting your brands - it could be unfair for Aries Cerat - a brand that I look to listen. Fortunately I will be able to listen to it in Europe.

 

[analog brother]

The jadis 200 sound excellent on the M3s at Rhapsody in NY. And potential buyers can compare it to Vitus and Soulution, goldmund, etc

transformers; more than meets the eye...

 

[andromedaaudio]

It depends also a lot on the Listener, some Just like to play a bit of jazz at moderate soundlevels and it Will be fine , some have a large musical variety and ask more of a speaker and Will give the verdict underpowered

 

[DaveyF]

Nothing to ponder on Davey. This is one of the most retold stories in the audio business. Who is to blame dealer or buyer? Don't know all the facts and it is usually the dealer, but suffice to say when you are dropping some big money on gear you take it for a test drive like an automobile if you don't want to have any regrets.

What you say makes perfect sense. Except in this case, my friend relied on the dealer to relate how his new speakers ( which he also bought from the same dealer) would matchup with the tube amps. The dealer knew that a) my friends room was quite large...(as it needed to be since the speakers are also large full range floor standers) and that b) my friend likes to listen to all kinds of music, not just chamber! So, unfortunately the ability for my friend to audition these speakers in his own room along with the amps ( which came from europe on special order--as did the speakers!) was virtually impossible. In reality, I wonder how often people are able to actually audition the gear they are contemplating purchasing in their own systems before pulling the trigger, under these circumstances??? With amps and some speakers, it is relatively easy to do....with tonearms and cartridges,etc., you tell me.
My point is that this dealer was more interested in making the large sale than actually being sure that what he was selling was synergistic to the needs of his customer. Which is why he no longer can count on my friends business. Not saying all dealers are like this, but clearly with the higher priced gear, the temptation is going to be there.