Music Server Project
- Thread starter PNWAS
- Start date
. I will put it on the near term TODO list.
I agree with Vincent that jitter measurements for music servers are rarely ever seen online, in the forums or magazines (or anywhere else I've looked). How cool would it be to see measurements for a stock Mac and PC, a purpose-built server like the Linn (if anyone has one) and tweaked PCs with various configurations, player software, power cables, etc?
Here are some interesting results from the jitter tests of the CMP2 server and a description of how the tests were conducted. The designer measured 51ps and he seems to really know his stuff so that might be the gold-standard to shoot for. Steve Nugent suggests in his article that 15ps is a theoretical holy grail for the human ear with the most resolving systems, but I expect most of us don't have a system where we would hear a difference at levels that low.
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.03Jitter
I'm starting to understand why jitter measurements are so difficult. These measurements are in pico seconds, which is 1e+12 per second; if I'm correct, trillionths of a second. That's what I call precise measurement. In those terms, it's not hard to understand how a seemingly inconsequential electrical interference can become a factor.
Here are some interesting results from the jitter tests of the CMP2 server and a description of how the tests were conducted. The designer measured 51ps and he seems to really know his stuff so that might be the gold-standard to shoot for. Steve Nugent suggests in his article that 15ps is a theoretical holy grail for the human ear with the most resolving systems, but I expect most of us don't have a system where we would hear a difference at levels that low.
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.03Jitter
I'm starting to understand why jitter measurements are so difficult. These measurements are in pico seconds, which is 1e+12 per second; if I'm correct, trillionths of a second. That's what I call precise measurement. In those terms, it's not hard to understand how a seemingly inconsequential electrical interference can become a factor.
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After a few weeks of work I finally have a small SSD installed in my server and the OS installations reconfigured. Also part of the project was to power my CPU fan externally with an adapter (no fans on the board now) and install a toggle switch to turn off the HD Audio and Networking sections of my board, when using the Audio OS.
My two Windows 7 installations are on the SSD now. I have a home theater installation for watching DVDs, and Blu-ray on Power DVD, ripping music, accessing the Internet, etc. and an audio installation just for playing Foobar; I deleted the old OS on my spinning drive, which was moved to an external enclosure (per Gary's recommendation), but still houses my audio files.
A few months ago on this thread I mentioned my curiosity about the program called RT7 Lite. At the time I thought the program offered a moderate amount of tweaking features. However, after using the program on both of my recent Win 7 installations, I have found that this is a full-blown configuration tool that's capable of stripping out or disabling just about any component or feature of Windows. A standard Win 7 64-bit Home Premium installation used about 15gb of space and my audio installation (which is the most pared down) uses about 35% that; gone are programs like Media Player and Internet Explorer, networking features and numerous unneeded drivers and services. I'm noticing a nice improvement in the sound with the audio installation.
There are a lot of headaches that go along with installing the program and getting it to work the way you want it to and I have a few features like setting the page file and image backup that I want and aren't functional in the audio section. However, given how powerful it is, it's a remarkable software. Next steps are to save an image of each OS and start experimenting with AutoRuns and underclocking with ClockGen in the audio section.
My two Windows 7 installations are on the SSD now. I have a home theater installation for watching DVDs, and Blu-ray on Power DVD, ripping music, accessing the Internet, etc. and an audio installation just for playing Foobar; I deleted the old OS on my spinning drive, which was moved to an external enclosure (per Gary's recommendation), but still houses my audio files.
A few months ago on this thread I mentioned my curiosity about the program called RT7 Lite. At the time I thought the program offered a moderate amount of tweaking features. However, after using the program on both of my recent Win 7 installations, I have found that this is a full-blown configuration tool that's capable of stripping out or disabling just about any component or feature of Windows. A standard Win 7 64-bit Home Premium installation used about 15gb of space and my audio installation (which is the most pared down) uses about 35% that; gone are programs like Media Player and Internet Explorer, networking features and numerous unneeded drivers and services. I'm noticing a nice improvement in the sound with the audio installation.
There are a lot of headaches that go along with installing the program and getting it to work the way you want it to and I have a few features like setting the page file and image backup that I want and aren't functional in the audio section. However, given how powerful it is, it's a remarkable software. Next steps are to save an image of each OS and start experimenting with AutoRuns and underclocking with ClockGen in the audio section.
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I was reading on the CMP2 page about the sonic benefits of using a linear power supply in a server, rather than a standard PC power supply. There is a plan for a DIY power supply on the CMP2 site, but it doesn't give enough detail for a non-engineer to build it. I believe CMP2 uses a plain old dirty computer PS for the drives and the custom PS for the two motherboard connectors.
Does anyone out there have any ideas about plans we might use for a DIY project or maybe an existing unit that could be re-purposed for a PC?
Does anyone out there have any ideas about plans we might use for a DIY project or maybe an existing unit that could be re-purposed for a PC?
Hi Gary
I am late to the "local" party but thought better-late-than-never...
Was there a final Bill of Material published for the project?
I am late to the "local" party but thought better-late-than-never...
Was there a final Bill of Material published for the project?
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Hi Ki Choi,
Here it is: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/newsletter/Newsletter_RMAF2010.pdf
However, the CPU is already obsolete, but the replacement is this one:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=6381967&CatId=2851
There are better ways to mount the external drive than the "hanging wire" method that I proposed. Get a eSATA connector, and then an eSATA drive.
Here it is: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/newsletter/Newsletter_RMAF2010.pdf
However, the CPU is already obsolete, but the replacement is this one:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=6381967&CatId=2851
There are better ways to mount the external drive than the "hanging wire" method that I proposed. Get a eSATA connector, and then an eSATA drive.
Hi Gary:
thanks for the links and info. I will be ordering my parts now.
Will ask more question if you don't mind as I get deeper into the project.
One more question. The article mentions the motherboard having header for coax S/PDIF output connector. Will this set up output PCM 176.4 and 192Khz sample rates? I see your foobar screen on iPad with HiRez files.
Thanks,
Ki
thanks for the links and info. I will be ordering my parts now.
Will ask more question if you don't mind as I get deeper into the project.
One more question. The article mentions the motherboard having header for coax S/PDIF output connector. Will this set up output PCM 176.4 and 192Khz sample rates? I see your foobar screen on iPad with HiRez files.
Thanks,
Ki
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garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Hi Ki,
The PCM header on the motherboard is not limited, but it's noisy and drops out. So, I don't recommend it for anything more than 24/96. However, it will work at 24/192. Using this server build, I use a Weiss or an eMU 0404 USB for the high-rez files.
Cheers
Gary
The PCM header on the motherboard is not limited, but it's noisy and drops out. So, I don't recommend it for anything more than 24/96. However, it will work at 24/192. Using this server build, I use a Weiss or an eMU 0404 USB for the high-rez files.
Cheers
Gary
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Hi Ki,
One more datapoint - we built another server two days ago, and took 24/192 out from the built-in Toslink output using ASIO4ALL to the Weiss DAC optical S/PDIF input. It sounded wonderful.
So, the drop-outs from the built-in S/PDIF header that we experienced could have been from a bad implementation of the connector. We used a cheap computer one. May be it will work better if a proper BNC is used....
One more datapoint - we built another server two days ago, and took 24/192 out from the built-in Toslink output using ASIO4ALL to the Weiss DAC optical S/PDIF input. It sounded wonderful.
So, the drop-outs from the built-in S/PDIF header that we experienced could have been from a bad implementation of the connector. We used a cheap computer one. May be it will work better if a proper BNC is used....
Thanks Gary for the update.
Having the high Rez data file playing capability was a critical requirement for my goal from the music server.
Ki
Having the high Rez data file playing capability was a critical requirement for my goal from the music server.
Ki
I have been reading about your server project. Basically I started something very similar some months ago but based on a laptop with W7 as "the player" with Foobar2000, and another PC as the server(OS installed in a SSD) containing the music files in a Western Digital GreenCAviar HDisk (both share the same home network, obviously). Yesterday I spent some time playing some music with it so I could burn-in my new Adam A7X. However I decided to play the music in the laptop, not through Foobar2000 but with a little ultra-minimalistic free mediaplayer:
http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/ and it seems to me that this last one sounds even more detailed... Have any of you tried it before ? Of course you can adjust also the memory-buffer.
Getting the music data (from another PC), playing it with the laptop (disconnected from mains, just with batteries) and with this minimalist Wasapi player makes the music, apparently, even more transparet and detailed. ...any thoughts after trying it ? Oh, yes, I forgot to tell you: your antivirus may detect it as a virus but it is not, of course, it's just that the program modifies the register.
http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/ and it seems to me that this last one sounds even more detailed... Have any of you tried it before ? Of course you can adjust also the memory-buffer.
Getting the music data (from another PC), playing it with the laptop (disconnected from mains, just with batteries) and with this minimalist Wasapi player makes the music, apparently, even more transparet and detailed. ...any thoughts after trying it ? Oh, yes, I forgot to tell you: your antivirus may detect it as a virus but it is not, of course, it's just that the program modifies the register.
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If you are playing running on battery check the power saving schema.
It might have a very negative impact: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/PowerSaving.htm
It might have a very negative impact: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/PowerSaving.htm
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Folks, Wintense just released a new version of foo_touchremote. It now pairs with TunesRemote+ which means that it will pair with Android devices and Windows 7 phones. Seems to be more stable when switching views from album to genre to artists too.
Hello Audiofilodigital, thank you for letting us know about this. I installed it last week and after a few days of troubleshooting, I've been evaluating it. I'm using Zu Druid speakers, a Wyred DAC2, a Modwright 36.5 pre, a homemade F5 amp and too many other things to mention. The server is a fanless desktop, with an audio boot section with a stripped Win 7 OS, Foobar and almost all of the services, drivers and registry keys disabled (no networking, advanced graphics or other non-essential features).
Given my server setup, a player without a GUI sounded intriguing. After listening over the weekend, the sound was definitely different, but by the end of the weekend I wasn't sure it was better. I did some tests with DPC latency checker, with both of the players and found the latency was slightly higher on the Stealth Player. Unfortunately, DPC is not very detailed and you have to kind of eyball it, rather than get an precise measurement. I haven't measured with changes to the Stealth buffer settings, so that may change things. I'm hoping to find a latency test with more data, like RATT or Microsoft PerfX (if I can figure out how to use it).
I have a few suggestions for your laptop/desktop setup. Try Throttlestop to undervolt your CPU; it may run on the lowest setting if you're only playing music on the machine, but if it crashes, just inch it up another step until it's stable (you could extend the battery charge life by 10-15%). If your laptop has a SATA or eSATA connection (not USB), try Gary's suggestion to use an external HD enclosure that's powered externally and connects with SATA, then disable your Wireless drivers and turn the switch off. Use Autoruns to shut off unused drivers (make sure to save an image first and use the last good configuration feature, if you get a crash).
Cheers,
Darin
http://forum.notebookreview.com/har...arket-upgrades/531329-throttlestop-guide.html
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902
Tell us more Gary. What does this app do? The web page barely talks about it. Does it remote the library and fully controls foobar remotely? And iTunes???? Do you get album view and such or just text list of files?
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Everything you said. I use to remotely control Foobar on my server. I get album view so that I can flip through by album cover art, it sorts by genre, artist, and composer with album art. I'm still trying to make it work with my Android phone, but it seems to work perfectly with an iPad. When you were here the other day, that was what II was using to pick the music. I'll post a few screenshots tomorrow.
I wish that someone would give some step-by-step instructions on how to set up a computer music server to use with an IPad starting with the computer not having any wireless capability. I use Foobar now and I want to be able to control it from my listening chair.
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