I completely agree with this. In addition, how well the listening seat and then the speakers are positioned in the room will account for another large percentage of the overall quality of the sound. The gear is important, but the room and set up are more important. There are many very good components available and some at quite reasonable prices. Great sound can be achieved with a moderately priced, but well thought out, system if the room is good and the set up is properly done.
My default audiophile state: dissatisfaction
- Thread starter Diapason
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I completely agree with this. In addition, how well the listening seat and then the speakers are positioned in the room will account for another large percentage of the overall quality of the sound. The gear is important, but the room and set up are more important. There are many very good components available and some at quite reasonable prices. Great sound can be achieved with a moderately priced, but well thought out, system if the room is good and the set up is properly done.
Peter, that review was a joy to read. Well-written and extremely educational, it is a must read for anyone who calls themselves an audiophile.
Re to room acoustics, there is no doubt that this plays an important part of the overall balance in every aspect of the soundstage and presented sonics.
However, there is another fundamental aspect to the systems sound. Whether listening in near-field or not, the basic sound elements of what the system conveys must be heard at low volumes. For example, there is one dealer here who is also the distributor for ARC gear, monitor audio, Ambience, and mission. Apart from the other 100 brands they represent such as marantz, nad, musical fidelity, cary, bryston, sonus faber etc. When you enter their store, there's stuff everywhere! You have to be sober and careful enough not to step over or trip over sometimes...
There are systems in almost every corner of the store. When they do a demo, it is generally at low volumes and it sounds good. You get the basic idea of the capability of the system being demoed.
They also have a separate dedicated room that is heavily treated for near field listening and all their systems sound quite fantastic in these settings. Hence, when the customer takes it home it sounds even better because they have more space compared to the dealer's show rooms. Therefore, what I'm saying is that the above system must give a basic sonic signature regardless of the room it's placed in. In this case the sonic signature is not much liked, therefore I strongly believe that there is a significant system mis-mismatch going on here. First get that part sorted out, and then treat the room is what I've learned over the many decades of the search in the most enjoyable level of play back.
Cheers, RJ
However, there is another fundamental aspect to the systems sound. Whether listening in near-field or not, the basic sound elements of what the system conveys must be heard at low volumes. For example, there is one dealer here who is also the distributor for ARC gear, monitor audio, Ambience, and mission. Apart from the other 100 brands they represent such as marantz, nad, musical fidelity, cary, bryston, sonus faber etc. When you enter their store, there's stuff everywhere! You have to be sober and careful enough not to step over or trip over sometimes...
There are systems in almost every corner of the store. When they do a demo, it is generally at low volumes and it sounds good. You get the basic idea of the capability of the system being demoed.
They also have a separate dedicated room that is heavily treated for near field listening and all their systems sound quite fantastic in these settings. Hence, when the customer takes it home it sounds even better because they have more space compared to the dealer's show rooms. Therefore, what I'm saying is that the above system must give a basic sonic signature regardless of the room it's placed in. In this case the sonic signature is not much liked, therefore I strongly believe that there is a significant system mis-mismatch going on here. First get that part sorted out, and then treat the room is what I've learned over the many decades of the search in the most enjoyable level of play back.
Cheers, RJ
Agree completely, and the reason I had posted earlier that op reconsider use of preamp or at least burrow a good one to try. The sonic deficiencies op mentioned are the same I encountered without a preamp even though my DAC was designed with inbuilt preamp functionality. I believe Ralph and others gave good reason to support this believe. Often use of a preamp can be a trade-off since they tend to reduce transparency and detail and hence the reason I would seek out a unit that wont degrade these traits much.
I have said this before and i will say it again, find yourself speakers that you like and build your system aroud them,yes the room is the most important BUT very few audiophiles have a perfect room.
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One year at RMAF (2007, the year we showed the Dream Makers with Atma-Sphere amps), we were getting too much room boom. Then I remembered we had a second pair of speakers available (Jazz Modules). I changed the port lengths of the second pair of speakers so they would become Helmholtz absorbers at about the right frequency, and parked them in the corners behind the main speakers. That's probably the most expensive room treatment I've ever used.
Depends on if your in it to listen to the music or you are in it to listen to your kit.
I love this site and spend hours here reading, best forum so far, not so much squabbling.
BUT when you put your turntable in a separate room on a 12k electronic vibration elimination platform AND CUT the slab of your homes foundation around it.......me thinks you need to consider the music.......
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I get so wrapped up in tweeking that I just stop and sit down and listen and enjoy the actual music and not worry about that null that is obviously there at the moment.
When you start listening for problems, you will find them.
I actually had to tell a person once to NOT tell me how to listen for a particular item, because I would obsess over it instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.
Gave up on chasing Musical Nirvana years ago.....kind of......sort of....not really.
Now to go dull my OCD's with a Liga Privera T52 and a little Buffalo Trace Eagle Rare.
I love this site and spend hours here reading, best forum so far, not so much squabbling.
BUT when you put your turntable in a separate room on a 12k electronic vibration elimination platform AND CUT the slab of your homes foundation around it.......me thinks you need to consider the music.......
:I get so wrapped up in tweeking that I just stop and sit down and listen and enjoy the actual music and not worry about that null that is obviously there at the moment.
When you start listening for problems, you will find them.
I actually had to tell a person once to NOT tell me how to listen for a particular item, because I would obsess over it instead of sitting back and enjoying the music.
Gave up on chasing Musical Nirvana years ago.....kind of......sort of....not really.
Now to go dull my OCD's with a Liga Privera T52 and a little Buffalo Trace Eagle Rare.
Hello everyone, and Happy St Patrick's Day to all of you!
I've been a little bit off the grid so trying to catch up on all the posts. I had another foray into positioning of speakers, seat and sound treatments a couple of nights ago, and while it reminded me once again what a difference such things can make, I didn't find anything that I felt was an improvement on the status quo. Of course, it's taken a long time to get to my current position, so maybe this shouldn't be too surprising. Still, it also reminded me yet again of what a difficult space I have. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments above that the room is a major component of the sound, but what's to be done when the room is really bad and moving isn't an option? I once again think I've too much absorption, should I be looking at diffusion options instead?
I still need to try things out at 90 degrees to the current positioning, but I also want to measure the room. I've downloaded REW software and somebody has loaned me a USB mic to get me started, but I haven't actually attempted anything yet.
I'm actually ampless at the moment as I've sent the monoblocks off for rebiasing. Having spoken to the guy who's doing it, he confirmed that both were very far from optimal in terms of biasing and DC offset. This doesn't surprise me hugely, and it will be interesting to see what they sound like when they return this evening.
The whole preamp question is an interesting one, and I genuinely think that is a factor in what I'm hearing, or more accurately what's lacking. I've heard the difference in other systems, and indeed a good preamp might help hugely. Sadly, my one foray into a preamp purchase didn't go well. I bought a GRAAF 13.5B mkII online, persuaded by constant rave reviews on another forum, and it didn't work successfully in my system AT ALL. I knew from the first bars that it wouldn't be staying, and my mind was completely unchanged after a month so I sold it on. This was my first attempt at buying something without demoing at home first, and I'm inclined to think it's virtually pointless trying it again. The problem is that there aren't a huge number of good preamps turning up on the second-hand markets in Dublin at the moment, and my dealer doesn't stock a huge amount of high-end inventory these days. Basically, I'll have to be patient for the right thing to come along.
My wife is 37 weeks pregnant at the moment so thoughts are starting to turn away from hifi again for a little while. I don't expect I'll get much time to tinker in the nerd cave over the coming months!
I've been a little bit off the grid so trying to catch up on all the posts. I had another foray into positioning of speakers, seat and sound treatments a couple of nights ago, and while it reminded me once again what a difference such things can make, I didn't find anything that I felt was an improvement on the status quo. Of course, it's taken a long time to get to my current position, so maybe this shouldn't be too surprising. Still, it also reminded me yet again of what a difficult space I have. I agree wholeheartedly with the comments above that the room is a major component of the sound, but what's to be done when the room is really bad and moving isn't an option? I once again think I've too much absorption, should I be looking at diffusion options instead?
I still need to try things out at 90 degrees to the current positioning, but I also want to measure the room. I've downloaded REW software and somebody has loaned me a USB mic to get me started, but I haven't actually attempted anything yet.
I'm actually ampless at the moment as I've sent the monoblocks off for rebiasing. Having spoken to the guy who's doing it, he confirmed that both were very far from optimal in terms of biasing and DC offset. This doesn't surprise me hugely, and it will be interesting to see what they sound like when they return this evening.
The whole preamp question is an interesting one, and I genuinely think that is a factor in what I'm hearing, or more accurately what's lacking. I've heard the difference in other systems, and indeed a good preamp might help hugely. Sadly, my one foray into a preamp purchase didn't go well. I bought a GRAAF 13.5B mkII online, persuaded by constant rave reviews on another forum, and it didn't work successfully in my system AT ALL. I knew from the first bars that it wouldn't be staying, and my mind was completely unchanged after a month so I sold it on. This was my first attempt at buying something without demoing at home first, and I'm inclined to think it's virtually pointless trying it again. The problem is that there aren't a huge number of good preamps turning up on the second-hand markets in Dublin at the moment, and my dealer doesn't stock a huge amount of high-end inventory these days. Basically, I'll have to be patient for the right thing to come along.
My wife is 37 weeks pregnant at the moment so thoughts are starting to turn away from hifi again for a little while. I don't expect I'll get much time to tinker in the nerd cave over the coming months!
You're right. It is an absolute crap shoot. But you have ask yourself what are the other options.
And if the room is the problem, that will outweigh all other potential fixes.
The power amps are back, and once again I'm struck by something that should be obvious but that I often forget: small and subtle differences in absolute terms can significantly affect my perception. After all, isn't that why we're here? Those subtleties? I'm foolish to forget this.
Simply put, everything is sounding a lot better. The overall sonic signature is, of course, virtually unchanged and the gross problems remain, but the sound is more inclined to suck me in rather than push me away. Little spatial cues, a feeling of slightly greater control, a bit more image and pitch stability, a little bit more resolution, they have all combined together to make a more lifelike sound, a more interesting sound, ultimately a more emotionally involving sound. Now, we're not out of the woods or anything of the sort (!) but at least for now I can enjoy listening a bit more. For the first time in a long time, I wasn't changing discs and jumping tracks every couple of minutes, and I was reluctant to turn things off when it started to get a bit too late. This is progress.
Simply put, everything is sounding a lot better. The overall sonic signature is, of course, virtually unchanged and the gross problems remain, but the sound is more inclined to suck me in rather than push me away. Little spatial cues, a feeling of slightly greater control, a bit more image and pitch stability, a little bit more resolution, they have all combined together to make a more lifelike sound, a more interesting sound, ultimately a more emotionally involving sound. Now, we're not out of the woods or anything of the sort (!) but at least for now I can enjoy listening a bit more. For the first time in a long time, I wasn't changing discs and jumping tracks every couple of minutes, and I was reluctant to turn things off when it started to get a bit too late. This is progress.
Hi reading your posts, if your room is long, but narrow, not sure how an amp will solve the problem. IMO, you either need a corner speaker like Audionote, or a panel as they interact not much with sidewalls, and as you have enough length to pull them well out from the front wall.
I really wish I liked panel speakers, but I've never found a pair that really floated my boat...
^^ Just me, but I have yet to hear a room corrector that really worked- so far all that I have heard the room sounded better without them despite the obvious problems of the room.
Some PM discussion with other members and some soul-searching on my part has persuaded me that the fundamental problem here is the speakers. I love them in many ways (they were such a huge leap forward from anything I had before that for a long time I couldn't imagine ever upgrading) but I've started to realise that the kind of sound they present doesn't always suit me.
Interestingly, this is alluded to in TAS's recent speaker buying guide. In the review of the new Kharma S7, Neil Gader writes the following:
This describes my issues to a tee. Looks like it's time to make another leap...
Interestingly, this is alluded to in TAS's recent speaker buying guide. In the review of the new Kharma S7, Neil Gader writes the following:
This describes my issues to a tee. Looks like it's time to make another leap...
That's an option, definitely. We have an Avantgarde dealer locally who I have a good relationship with, so that's a start. I have some misgivings based on what I've heard before, but it might be time to test again.
Yes. Misgivings!
I don't think there are any other horn dealers in Ireland, but I'm contemplating a fact-finding trip to the UK once I can escape for a couple of days, so I might be in touch with you...
I don't think there are any other horn dealers in Ireland, but I'm contemplating a fact-finding trip to the UK once I can escape for a couple of days, so I might be in touch with you...
Hey Diapason,
Great to hear that the Mrs. is pregnant! Congratulations!
Infact, this is a great time to re-visit the hifi, believe me when the bubs in the tummy, play all sorts of music that you like. Bubs will start to take an instant liking to it as well, and then when she/he finally pops out, low and behold, they will actually like the music! Or better still they'll become either artistic or very creative in some form...
When my good wife was preggy, we used to sit on the sofa and listen until all were asleep, usually listening to Simon & Garfunkel, or Tracy Chapman or Nora Jones. On many nights it used to be Nat King Cole. Now my daughter is 13, plays the trombone and in her high school jazz mini-band, so there you go! Music is a very important part of family life, especially when it sounds great and everyone enjoys, it also helps the atmosphere to be more relaxing in the house, rather than tantrums and wailing kids...
Now, getting back to your system, it seems that you have identified the problem more or less with the speakers but for some reason I am wondering whether it is the speakers or not... I know for a fact that something is a mis-match. Perhaps just even speaker cable or interconnects could also be an issue. Even the AC plug point where your gear is plugged into could be faulty, and you're not getting the required current for the amps/speakers to open up. I had this problem once many years ago, and having a dedicated line fixed that!
Also cables and interconnects play an important role, some neutral types are way better than some fancy stuff available. I remember one chap having some very fancy Van Den Hulls that cost a bomb, sounded okay, until we tried Nordost (blue heaven) and blew the roof off! Apart from that the Nordost was just a fraction of the cost...
There are a number of factors to consider here, I would just start with the basics. System set up properly even if it has to be "near field" that's alright as long as the basic sonics are there! Then work your way round the components and finally onto cable/interconnect matching and AC power points. Could even be a voltage fluctuation problem within your circuit...
The other thing is, since your about to have a child within the next few months, perhaps just sit back and try to enjoy the music since your kid will not care on what type of system you have, as long as the music is good! Once you've shared this joy and realized where there is need for improvement, you would probably figure it out straight away!
When there is a brother in need for good music, not to worry help is on the way mate.
Cheers an all the best to bubs!
RJ
Great to hear that the Mrs. is pregnant! Congratulations!
Infact, this is a great time to re-visit the hifi, believe me when the bubs in the tummy, play all sorts of music that you like. Bubs will start to take an instant liking to it as well, and then when she/he finally pops out, low and behold, they will actually like the music! Or better still they'll become either artistic or very creative in some form...
When my good wife was preggy, we used to sit on the sofa and listen until all were asleep, usually listening to Simon & Garfunkel, or Tracy Chapman or Nora Jones. On many nights it used to be Nat King Cole. Now my daughter is 13, plays the trombone and in her high school jazz mini-band, so there you go! Music is a very important part of family life, especially when it sounds great and everyone enjoys, it also helps the atmosphere to be more relaxing in the house, rather than tantrums and wailing kids...
Now, getting back to your system, it seems that you have identified the problem more or less with the speakers but for some reason I am wondering whether it is the speakers or not... I know for a fact that something is a mis-match. Perhaps just even speaker cable or interconnects could also be an issue. Even the AC plug point where your gear is plugged into could be faulty, and you're not getting the required current for the amps/speakers to open up. I had this problem once many years ago, and having a dedicated line fixed that!
Also cables and interconnects play an important role, some neutral types are way better than some fancy stuff available. I remember one chap having some very fancy Van Den Hulls that cost a bomb, sounded okay, until we tried Nordost (blue heaven) and blew the roof off! Apart from that the Nordost was just a fraction of the cost...
There are a number of factors to consider here, I would just start with the basics. System set up properly even if it has to be "near field" that's alright as long as the basic sonics are there! Then work your way round the components and finally onto cable/interconnect matching and AC power points. Could even be a voltage fluctuation problem within your circuit...
The other thing is, since your about to have a child within the next few months, perhaps just sit back and try to enjoy the music since your kid will not care on what type of system you have, as long as the music is good! Once you've shared this joy and realized where there is need for improvement, you would probably figure it out straight away!
When there is a brother in need for good music, not to worry help is on the way mate.
Cheers an all the best to bubs!
RJ
You are not alone.
I have a friend who changes components on a weekly basis.
In the last year he went thru the following speakers-Magnepan MMG, Kef LS50,and now has a pair of Joseph speakers.
He has also gone thru numerous amp, pre-amp, integrated and phono stages in the same time frame.
Something he doesn't change are his wires.He's not convinced they make a difference.Same goes for power tweaks.
I've mentioned that maybe this practise is what is the root of the problem with his short term romance with any new gear.
I would say he gets more enjoyment out of the chase than with the listening experience.
I enjoyed the sound of most of his set ups, some were steps up, some down and some just sideways.
He always convinces himself that the new piece is better than the last was, but the cycle continues.
He has bought some new speaker wires and a power cord, but I haven't heard the results.
The wires are not expensive,not Cardas or Nordost, but better than stock,or so it would appear from what I've read about them.
He has all the time in the world to listen to music on his system.That may be part of the problem.
I've told him that whenever he starts to nit pick it and look for some reason to trade and try something different he should just pack it away and buy something from a pawn shop and listen to that for awhile.
Then when that grows weary, re-insert the better gear .
Then decide which one makes you happy and stick with it.
Familiarity can breed discontent.
It can believe that.
I have a friend who changes components on a weekly basis.
In the last year he went thru the following speakers-Magnepan MMG, Kef LS50,and now has a pair of Joseph speakers.
He has also gone thru numerous amp, pre-amp, integrated and phono stages in the same time frame.
Something he doesn't change are his wires.He's not convinced they make a difference.Same goes for power tweaks.
I've mentioned that maybe this practise is what is the root of the problem with his short term romance with any new gear.
I would say he gets more enjoyment out of the chase than with the listening experience.
I enjoyed the sound of most of his set ups, some were steps up, some down and some just sideways.
He always convinces himself that the new piece is better than the last was, but the cycle continues.
He has bought some new speaker wires and a power cord, but I haven't heard the results.
The wires are not expensive,not Cardas or Nordost, but better than stock,or so it would appear from what I've read about them.
He has all the time in the world to listen to music on his system.That may be part of the problem.
I've told him that whenever he starts to nit pick it and look for some reason to trade and try something different he should just pack it away and buy something from a pawn shop and listen to that for awhile.
Then when that grows weary, re-insert the better gear .
Then decide which one makes you happy and stick with it.
Familiarity can breed discontent.
It can believe that.
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