My experience with Lampizator

[wisnon]

I don't see the relevance of the country of manufacturing, their policy is worldwide and includes all their products. All of them, yes speakers too. So, tell me again about how their 'standardised ' products make it completely different?

I could think of one thing….Customs duty. To reimport goosd back to many EU countries from outside the zone incurs stiff fees, even if you take YOUR OWN products back for repair. Again, the devil is in the details. I know another company in Europe that has WW direct sales and to keep a flat global price, the actually LOSE money selling in to certain countries…

So, not dissing Sanders, but being located in the US can often have its advantages. International direct sales are complicated, especially when the vendor tries to make it easy as possible for the buyers…which is best practice.

 

[rowli]

In europe (EU) we have a law that says customer has 14 days to withdraw when purchasing goods. So don't think its up to the company to deside expire period if buing in europe.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

/ Micke

 

[Al M.]

I could think of one thing….Customs duty. To reimport good back to many EU countries from outside the zone incurs stiff fees, even if you take YOUR OWN products back for repair.Again, the devil is in the details. I know another company in Europe that has WW direct sales and to keep a flat global price, the actually LOSE money selling in to certain countries…

So, not dissing Sanders, but being located in the US can often have its advantages. International direct sales are complicated, especially when the vendor tries to make it easy as possible for the buyers…which is best practice.

But again, I don't see the connection between this and the question if you offer a 7-day or a 30-day return. The price for taking back on the manufacturer/distributor's side should be the same or hardly different, or not?

Regardless, I think we can agree that a 7-day return on an item that first needs to be broken in is problematic. Or not?

The break-in problem is exacerbated because it is on two circuits that cannot run at the same time, a DSD and a PCM circuit.

***

Please note that I only question Lampizator's policies. This stands apart from my judgment of the product itself, which in the case of the Big7 seems to me remarkable indeed, regardless of the specific issues that Ian may have experienced with it. If I myself would want to buy it is a different question.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think that the Lampizator value proposition is actually rather unique and in favour of the consumer. There are very few brands (if any) that allow you to purchase a product (with a healthy 5 year warranty) and then have that product be able to be updated freely as and when new developments occur for a nominal fee and a renewed warranty. This makes the Lampizator products somewhat living in the sense that you could potentially renew your unit to latest spec whenever you like. You can even adapt an existing product as your requirements change - say you decide you need aes/ebu or you want do add volume control.

I think this grey cloud that hangs on this thread will be lifted when Lukasz returns from hols because the Lampizator brand is about true audiophile passion and not mass market and I can't believe for one minute that Lampizator would ever have wanted to see the current situation manifest as it has - I don't believe it would be true to their values.

Anyway - we will see in due course. Btw - I have no affiliation to Lampizator so these are my opinions only.

 

[wisnon]

But again, I don't see the connection between this and the question if you offer a 7-day or a 30-day return. The price for taking back on the manufacturer/distributor's side should be the same or hardly different, or not?

Regardless, I think we can agree that a 7-day return on an item that first needs to be broken in is problematic. Or not?

The break-in problem is exacerbated because it is on two circuits that cannot run at the same time, a DSD and a PCM circuit.

***

Please note that I only question Lampizator's policies. This stands apart from my judgment of the product itself, which in the case of the Big7 seems to me remarkable indeed, regardless of the specific issues that Ian may have experienced with it. If I myself would want to buy it is a different question.

AL

I understand what you say and would only answer that anything can be accomodated with a price adjustment. Some may be willing to pay more. i personally LOVE the fact that the price to SQ ratio is so high and prefer to see prices as low as possible, while still allowing them enough profit to thrive and keep innovating/improving. Yes, I know that break in is long (more so for the GG) but based on the feedback of other Lampi customers and many reviewers, i dont see this as a big leap of faith. They all sound good out of the box and there is enough there for any experienced audiophile to know that more is to come.

Let me be bold enough to say that you have not heard the full potential of Ian's B7 yet. Apart from normal break in, you didnt hear any premium tubes that are proven to lift the sound even more and finally upconversion in JRiver is not optimal. With JRiver I would only run native rate. Foobar and HQP are better up converters. If/when HQP gets integrated into Roon, that will be the killer APP.

 

[Al M.]

AL

I understand what you say and would only answer that anything can be accomodated with a price adjustment. Some may be willing to pay more. i personally LOVE the fact that the price to SQ ratio is so high and prefer to see prices as low as possible, while still allowing them enough profit to thrive and keep innovating/improving.

So where precisely, from the business perspective, are there higher costs with a 30-day trial vs. a 7-day trial? I just don't see it. Processing costs should be almost the same, and shipping and other fees should be the same. Stocking fees? I don't see a difference either. While the unit is away, it isn't stocked.

Also, not that there will be many returns anyway. Given how Lampi's are loved and how they fly off the shelf, or the work bench, like hotcakes I would assume that there would be just 1 return in 10 or 20 deliveries. So all the costs associated with return should be minimal compared to total turnover.

Let me be bold enough to say that you have not heard the full potential of Ian's B7 yet. Apart from normal break in, you didnt hear any premium tubes that are proven to lift the sound even more and finally upconversion in JRiver is not optimal. With JRiver I would only run native rate. Foobar and HQP are better up converters. If/when HQP gets integrated into Roon, that will be the killer APP.

I have little reason to doubt your assertion.

 

[microstrip]

So where precisely, from the business perspective, are there higher costs with a 30-day trial vs. a 7-day trial? I just don't see it. Processing costs should be almost the same, and shipping and other fees should be the same. Stocking fees? I don't see a difference either. While the unit is away, it isn't stocked.

Also, not that there will be many returns anyway. Given how Lampi's are loved and how they fly off the shelf, or the work bench, like hotcakes I would assume that there would be just 1 return in 10 or 20 deliveries. So all the costs associated with return should be minimal compared to total turnover.



I have little reason to doubt your assertion.

If you are a small manufacturer 30-day vs. 7 -day makes a lot of difference. Small business is high-end are most of the time run with very limited financial resources - I can imagine that loan interest rates will be high for an high end cottage industry and financing sources are not easy to find. These companies depend on income due to sales for the payment of next batch, and suppliers of hand manufactured products, such as special capacitors or chokes take a considerable time and minimum quantities to deliver an order.

Also, if they would have a 30 day return policy they would perhaps have to quadruple the number of stocked units - and once an unit returns it needs to be checked and re-packed, it can take a lot of time.

We should remember that after a few weeks many audiophiles loose their initial enthusiasm and start doubting about how well their money is being used. It would be nice to have real statistics of returns of comparable products. Please do not refer to Sanders for comparisons - some one accepting to listen to a single user speaker is not a typical user and their products have a special type of consumer, very different from Lampizator buyers.

In the end it all a business. Higher experimental period needs more money, implying higher margins. And bankrupt companies are of no good to the high-end. All IMHO, surely.

 

[adyc]

It maybe better for dealers or distributors to keep several demo units for home trial. Buyer just pay for the shipping cost. It is fair to both sides. Buyer cannot complain the item is not fully broken and cannot evaluate it properly. The dealer/distributor can minimize the risk of new retuned units.

 

[rockitman]

It maybe better for dealers or distributors to keep several demo units for home trial. Buyer just pay for the shipping cost. It is fair to both sides. Buyer cannot complain the item is not fully broken and cannot evaluate it properly. The dealer/distributor can minimize the risk of new retuned units.

Even 1 unit could work if buyer could wait if necessary...it's an obvious good idea for a hi end equip maker..Biz model.

 

[Robin Hood]

I tend to assume that many buyers of Lampi products would rather burn in the equipment themselves rather than wait for a delayed shipment of 2-4 weeks for the manufacturer to burn in the equipment. I know that some people are very particular about how or the method used to burn in audio equipment, while others don’t care.

There are costs associated with all operations and I assume that Lampi has a successful business model and almost any change in their business practice will be accompanied with either cost increases or decreases. Some manufacturers have a free trial policy, others have a trial policy with restocking fees, others allow a credit or trade up policy, while others have an all sales are final policy. Any of these policies could be made to work for almost any manufacturer but the prices of the products would change and the manufacturer may not want to have the same policy across their entire product line.

If a manufacturer has deep inventories I imagine that they would permit long trial policies. If a product is selling below expectations or if profit margins are high I imagine that a manufacturer may have a generous trial policy. And how does the manufacturer handle return units? Some inspect, refurbish if necessary, repackage and resell as new, while others inspect, refurbish if necessary, repackage and resell at a discount or used. And how does manufacturer handle new units that do not pass inspection QA and need to be reworked to pass before being sold as new?

And what about the buyers? There are serious end users, there are tire kickers, there are dealers that sell competitive products and there are some who are looking to become dealers. And of course the customer is always right, except when he is wrong. Boy, I’m glad I’m not an audio manufacturer or dealer.

 

[Al M.]

Also, if they would have a 30 day return policy they would perhaps have to quadruple the number of stocked units

That would assume that most of the units are returned, which I don't think is realistic. And if that were the case, the product would be problematic anyway. I would think that most Lampi buyers keep their unit.

- and once an unit returns it needs to be checked and re-packed, it can take a lot of time.

7-day or 30-day return doesn't make a difference here.

We should remember that after a few weeks many audiophiles loose their initial enthusiasm and start doubting about how well their money is being used.

That might be a problem, yes. There are too many gearheads around who are more interested in changing their stuff all the time than looking for actual long-term musical satisfaction. Why can't some people enjoy the stuff they have, at least for a while?

 

[wisnon]

I tend to assume that many buyers of Lampi products would rather burn in the equipment themselves rather than wait for a delayed shipment of 2-4 weeks for the manufacturer to burn in the equipment. I know that some people are very particular about how or the method used to burn in audio equipment, while others don’t care.

There are costs associated with all operations and I assume that Lampi has a successful business model and almost any change in their business practice will be accompanied with either cost increases or decreases. Some manufacturers have a free trial policy, others have a trial policy with restocking fees, others allow a credit or trade up policy, while others have an all sales are final policy. Any of these policies could be made to work for almost any manufacturer but the prices of the products would change and the manufacturer may not want to have the same policy across their entire product line.

If a manufacturer has deep inventories I imagine that they would permit long trial policies. If a product is selling below expectations or if profit margins are high I imagine that a manufacturer may have a generous trial policy. And how does the manufacturer handle return units? Some inspect, refurbish if necessary, repackage and resell as new, while others inspect, refurbish if necessary, repackage and resell at a discount or used. And how does manufacturer handle new units that do not pass inspection QA and need to be reworked to pass before being sold as new?

And what about the buyers? There are serious end users, there are tire kickers, there are dealers that sell competitive products and there are some who are looking to become dealers. And of course the customer is always right, except when he is wrong. Boy, I’m glad I’m not an audio manufacturer or dealer.

You nailed it!

 

[Al M.]

It maybe better for dealers or distributors to keep several demo units for home trial. Buyer just pay for the shipping cost. It is fair to both sides. Buyer cannot complain the item is not fully broken and cannot evaluate it properly. The dealer/distributor can minimize the risk of new retuned units.

That seems a great suggestion. It would emulate the dealer model, that I still have the privilege to enjoy with Goodwin's High End. I had fully broken in DACs to try at home for a few days, and could easily form a solid judgment that way.

 

[Steve Williams]

posts have been removed pertinent to "jap's" incessant violation of our TOS by insulting other members. FWIW, jap has been removed as well as I agree with all of your comments

 

[microstrip]

That would assume that most of the units are returned, which I don't think is realistic. And if that were the case, the product would be problematic anyway. I would think that most Lampi buyers keep their unit.

Again it is just our assumptions - real data is needed.

7-day or 30-day return doesn't make a difference here.

If more units are returned it does.

That might be a problem, yes. There are too many gearheads around who are more interested in changing their stuff all the time than looking for actual long-term musical satisfaction. Why can't some people enjoy the stuff they have, at least for a while?

Why should any one consider that their own way of living the hobby is better than others way? IMHO we should respect the "gearhead" audiophile - it is easy once we understand his motivations. IMHO the emotional connection with gear is part of the hobby, it is part of the fun of it. Perhaps we should start a thread on this interesting subject.

 

[Al M.]

Why should any one consider that their own way of living the hobby is better than others way? IMHO we should respect the "gearhead" audiophile - it is easy once we understand his motivations. IMHO the emotional connection with gear is part of the hobby, it is part of the fun of it. Perhaps we should start a thread on this interesting subject.

Fair point.

I only suspect that with some people the obsession with gear is such that it interferes with the enjoyment of music. That would be a perversion of the hobby: wasn't it suposed to be about the music in the first place? Comments come to mind like some audiophiles having forgotten to listen to an entire track from beginning to end.

I have to confess that also for me the hobby has sometimes interfered with the actual enjoyment of music. Fortunately now I am at a happy place again where it actually enhances my enjoyment of music, big time, especially now that all of my acoustic problems have been solved (posts on my system thread forthcoming).

Perhaps you're right about starting a thread on the subject, might be really interesting.

 

[microstrip]

I tend to assume that many buyers of Lampi products would rather burn in the equipment themselves rather than wait for a delayed shipment of 2-4 weeks for the manufacturer to burn in the equipment. I know that some people are very particular about how or the method used to burn in audio equipment, while others don’t care.

We had specific threads on burn in that have shown that factory burn-in is costly and its effects can be ruined by shipping. Those who believe in burn in know it is an electromechanical small change of non trivial material properties that can be affected by parcel dropout, vibrations and fast change of temperature.

BTW, tube burn-in is a well known and documented effect, studied in the 40's and 50's. It should not be confused with passive component or cable burn in, still a subject from the darkness.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Micro and Al, the emotional connection to gear is an excellent topic in it's own right. Bonzo75 needs to contribute, he's a little skeptical to say the least re our devotion to gear, we have many heated arguments on this subject. Soon to be in "General Audio Discussions"

 

[wisnon]

We just had a 4th of July party here in Switzerland for American and other friends. 2 of the guys (one US and one Swiss) took a break and came down to the room where my main system was. They were music lovers with no real systems to speak of… at lest not in audiophile terms. They were blown away and plan on coming back just to listen music.

Another notch for the audio mad community.

 

[Geardaddy]

Plenty of Lampi plugs going on here and over on AudioShark. The net is great for free advertising and for creating brand awareness.

It was not really intended as a plug....merely a question followed by a suggestion.