Congratulations Al. So glad to read about the positive results. The next frontier for your system, imo, is to move that rack well behind the speakers or off to the side. Barring that, use something smaller without the glass shelves. You now hear what getting rid of the glass window resonances has done. It should improve your center image and spacial effects even more. I look forward to hear the system soon.
My minimonitor/subwoofer system
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
Little did I know that just after I posted my last comment that I would be able to go over to Al M.'s house yesterday to listen to his system. I did not have much time, but I did take over a few of my CDs and spent about an hour listening.
The first thing I noticed upon walking into his listening room was that the room sounded different. It was considerably quieter. There was no street sound from the exterior of his house. He has just re-sided and insulated the same two exterior sides of his house which form two walls of his listening room. That insulation and the window plugs must be responsible for this dramatic drop in noise.
He first played a Beethoven string quartet. I had never heard as much string texture, color and tone before from his digital system. The resolution has increased significantly. With the much lower noise floor, low level details, dynamics and resolution have all increased and result in a more realistic and natural sound. The images have indeed moved forward and are more present, though there is still a lot of depth to the soundstage. Hall sounds are more easily heard and decays are more evident. There is more atmosphere, if captured in the recording, now evident in the playback.
Personally, I thought there was a bit too much mid bass energy, but as I mentioned to Al, this may be from my reference of my system which is less extended. He did turn down the sub volume which I preferred. On the string quartet, the cello and viola seemed to overpower the violins slightly. It could have been the recording, but I also heard this later with some music with an acoustic bass.
He played two solo vocal performances, a Bach Cantata and Susanna Vega's Tom's Diner. I have never heard solo female vocals like this on his system before. Incredibly solid, natural and stable image. Very present in the room and the Cantata reminded me very much of the sound I heard from a solo soprano rehearsing on the stage of the great Vienna State Opera. That hall is so large, that a single voice can pierce the absolute silence and stand in stark contrast to the space. I heard this in his room yesterday. Incredible.
I did suggest that perhaps some slight adjustments to the speaker and listener position might bring additional benefits as his room acoustics have now changed quite a bit. He is also considering changing his equipment rack.
Congratulations again Al. More positive changes to your system. Enjoy.
The first thing I noticed upon walking into his listening room was that the room sounded different. It was considerably quieter. There was no street sound from the exterior of his house. He has just re-sided and insulated the same two exterior sides of his house which form two walls of his listening room. That insulation and the window plugs must be responsible for this dramatic drop in noise.
He first played a Beethoven string quartet. I had never heard as much string texture, color and tone before from his digital system. The resolution has increased significantly. With the much lower noise floor, low level details, dynamics and resolution have all increased and result in a more realistic and natural sound. The images have indeed moved forward and are more present, though there is still a lot of depth to the soundstage. Hall sounds are more easily heard and decays are more evident. There is more atmosphere, if captured in the recording, now evident in the playback.
Personally, I thought there was a bit too much mid bass energy, but as I mentioned to Al, this may be from my reference of my system which is less extended. He did turn down the sub volume which I preferred. On the string quartet, the cello and viola seemed to overpower the violins slightly. It could have been the recording, but I also heard this later with some music with an acoustic bass.
He played two solo vocal performances, a Bach Cantata and Susanna Vega's Tom's Diner. I have never heard solo female vocals like this on his system before. Incredibly solid, natural and stable image. Very present in the room and the Cantata reminded me very much of the sound I heard from a solo soprano rehearsing on the stage of the great Vienna State Opera. That hall is so large, that a single voice can pierce the absolute silence and stand in stark contrast to the space. I heard this in his room yesterday. Incredible.
I did suggest that perhaps some slight adjustments to the speaker and listener position might bring additional benefits as his room acoustics have now changed quite a bit. He is also considering changing his equipment rack.
Congratulations again Al. More positive changes to your system. Enjoy.
Thank you very much, Peter, for your observations. It was great that you came over yesterday to listen. I am particularly pleased that you agree on the dramatic improvements in string quartet sound -- they are clearly not just in my imagination, but easily heard as real. It is great that you also confirm the better retrieval of low-level information about hall sound that I mentioned, based on another example, in my post on the benefits of the window plugs on the previous thread page.
As for the equipment rack, of course you are completely right. The next logical step is indeed getting rid of the glass shelves as well. My ultimate solution will be low HRS racks, but since at this point I would have a hard time putting down 6 grand for this (it would be very much worth it, I am sure), the next best compromise will be a low two-shelf wooden coffee table; I already spotted one online. I am going to experiment with this soon. But in fact, as far as future upgrades go, I might even give HRS racks a priority over a Berkeley Reference DAC...
As for the equipment rack, of course you are completely right. The next logical step is indeed getting rid of the glass shelves as well. My ultimate solution will be low HRS racks, but since at this point I would have a hard time putting down 6 grand for this (it would be very much worth it, I am sure), the next best compromise will be a low two-shelf wooden coffee table; I already spotted one online. I am going to experiment with this soon. But in fact, as far as future upgrades go, I might even give HRS racks a priority over a Berkeley Reference DAC...
I just returned home from listening to Al's system. It was my second time and the first after his window-plug upgrades.
I continue to be impressed how Al's system, with tube amps, can do transients so well. His system does cymbals better than any other system I have heard. I think cymbals (rides, hi-hats, crashes etc) are fairly complex sounds and it seems to me that many systems don't do them well. I used to always assume it was just hard to capture in recordings but Al's system proves otherwise. I've heard systems portray them as 'too white' sounding, or splashy, but Al's system conveys the metal, the rich body that they have in person without softening the transients of a wood stick interacting with them.
Of course, Al's system doesn't just excel at cymbals, he has this uncanny, spooky-real soundstage where one can imagine each performer standing in his own space and the detail is really impressive. Last time I only heard one violin (Al refrained from playing much classical because he didn't like how it sounded) but this time he played symphonies and string quartets and I thought solo violin was incredibly realistic and brass and string sections very spatial and textured. And the percussion was dynamite!
Since the last time I was there, I also noted much more linear bass - to the point where I couldn't hear the crossover point from his mini monitors to his sub. We played a cut off Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch and everything, including the acoustic bass was fantastic. Detailed with a dig-in punch that was very realistic and enjoyable.
Bravo, Al!
Also, while we went out to lunch, we came by a used LP store that has been in business 41 years. I scored a ton of mint-looking vinyl!
What a great day. Thanks for having me over, Al!
I continue to be impressed how Al's system, with tube amps, can do transients so well. His system does cymbals better than any other system I have heard. I think cymbals (rides, hi-hats, crashes etc) are fairly complex sounds and it seems to me that many systems don't do them well. I used to always assume it was just hard to capture in recordings but Al's system proves otherwise. I've heard systems portray them as 'too white' sounding, or splashy, but Al's system conveys the metal, the rich body that they have in person without softening the transients of a wood stick interacting with them.
Of course, Al's system doesn't just excel at cymbals, he has this uncanny, spooky-real soundstage where one can imagine each performer standing in his own space and the detail is really impressive. Last time I only heard one violin (Al refrained from playing much classical because he didn't like how it sounded) but this time he played symphonies and string quartets and I thought solo violin was incredibly realistic and brass and string sections very spatial and textured. And the percussion was dynamite!
Since the last time I was there, I also noted much more linear bass - to the point where I couldn't hear the crossover point from his mini monitors to his sub. We played a cut off Eric Dolphy's Out To Lunch and everything, including the acoustic bass was fantastic. Detailed with a dig-in punch that was very realistic and enjoyable.
Bravo, Al!
Also, while we went out to lunch, we came by a used LP store that has been in business 41 years. I scored a ton of mint-looking vinyl!
What a great day. Thanks for having me over, Al!
Yes, it was a great day, Ian, thanks for coming over!
I never thought that my first Beatles record since my youth would be a 45 rpm single! I don't have a Beatles CD yet, even though I always crank their music up when they come up on the car radio. I also don't even have a turntable to play the single on, but it''s just too cool not to have.
Thank you for your observations, Ian. I am glad you found solo violin sound that good; the timbre of the instrument has really improved tremendously with the ASC window plugs. Now that the improved acoustics have revealed the real system performance I still cannot get over how resolving standard Redbook 16/44 CD can be on violin sound.
As I told you I thought cymbals on your system sounded fine too, but you really seem to like the transients on mine. I think a lot of the transient performance can be attributed to the massive BorderPatrol external power supplies for the amps which, undisturbed by the demands of the music, provide a rock-solid flow of high-voltage DC that makes the tubes always operate under the optimal conditions they were intended to; in many, or perhaps even most, tube amps they just don't. An extraordinary power supply to feed the tubes is much more important than premium tubes (I have just regular Sovtek 2A3s as power tubes).
I was pleased that you found the soundstage on orchestral recordings large, while I always had been impressed by the size portrayal on your system.
I never thought that my first Beatles record since my youth would be a 45 rpm single! I don't have a Beatles CD yet, even though I always crank their music up when they come up on the car radio. I also don't even have a turntable to play the single on, but it''s just too cool not to have.
Thank you for your observations, Ian. I am glad you found solo violin sound that good; the timbre of the instrument has really improved tremendously with the ASC window plugs. Now that the improved acoustics have revealed the real system performance I still cannot get over how resolving standard Redbook 16/44 CD can be on violin sound.
As I told you I thought cymbals on your system sounded fine too, but you really seem to like the transients on mine. I think a lot of the transient performance can be attributed to the massive BorderPatrol external power supplies for the amps which, undisturbed by the demands of the music, provide a rock-solid flow of high-voltage DC that makes the tubes always operate under the optimal conditions they were intended to; in many, or perhaps even most, tube amps they just don't. An extraordinary power supply to feed the tubes is much more important than premium tubes (I have just regular Sovtek 2A3s as power tubes).
I was pleased that you found the soundstage on orchestral recordings large, while I always had been impressed by the size portrayal on your system.
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Peter, as far as the string quartet goes, I played it for Ian on the same settings as I did for you, and he found the mid-bass energy just right, not too much. I would say, compared to live music both view points can be correct, one with the sub settings as they were and one with lower settings, depending on hall acoustics that decide on the tonal balance heard. I always find it refreshing when I can discuss system performances with you, Ian and Ack in terms of comparisons of how it sounds live, because we all have experience with unamplified live sound. As I also mentioned to Ian, I find this much more satisfying than the many audiophile discussions about system comparisons that just come down to 'taste'.
Yes, there is more to it. It has damping material inside, see their flyer:
http://www.asc-soundproof.com/windowplug-flyer.pdf
Here is further technical explanation of the damping material:
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/wall-damp/technical
I must say, I didn't know ASC made these! Thanks for the pictures and sharing your experience with them.
How much distance is there between the panel when installed and glass behind it?
How much distance is there between the panel when installed and glass behind it?
Al, Shortly after I heard your system the last time, I listened to some Mozart string quintets on my system. You did not like this recording as I recall, but it sounds better now with my different loading and VTF settings. The tonal balance is different than what I heard on your system. There is less emphasis on the lower string frequencies. So yes, there is a discussion to be had about what sounds more real. Perhaps they both do depending on the venue of the recording and the playing of the instruments. But I also think it comes down to one's preference. Preference in the sense that "I think one sounds more real therefore I prefer it", as opposed to "I like this flavor more than the other".
I think it can be tricky to separate preference from opinion of accuracy. And there is the recording quality and mastering job. One way to have a more meaningful comparison is to have both formats in the same system and listen to the same recordings. There would still be obvious differences in mastering or format, but fewer variables than do exist in two different systems and rooms.
You are lucky in the sense that you can adjust the volume and crossover of your subs so that one can tune the system to one's liking or to what one thinks sounds more realistic to him. I don't have that option, nor do I have the extension of your subwoofer.
I guess we need to attend a few more string quartets together.
You're welcome, Amir. The distance between the panel and the glass behind it in my room is a few inches, the exact amount depending on the particular window. For example, the small windows behind the narrow plugs in the left window bay are more receded from the plug than others.
I would think that the panels can be very close to the glass surface (the backside of the panels is padded with black felt or similar material). The one essential requirement is that the window frame is at least 1.5 inches thick, in order to accommodate the depth of the window plugs which is exactly that. But it would be rare to find frames that are more shallow in depth.
You're welcome, David!
Now that the window plugs are in place and orchestral and other music does not sound too recessed anymore, I do invite any WBF member to hear my system. If you are in the Boston area or are ever traveling to it, and want to listen, just send me a PM. Any kind of music goes.
Now that the window plugs are in place and orchestral and other music does not sound too recessed anymore, I do invite any WBF member to hear my system. If you are in the Boston area or are ever traveling to it, and want to listen, just send me a PM. Any kind of music goes.
Peter,
it was great listening to the Beethoven quartet and the Mozart quintets yesterday in your system. Yes, I had not liked the sound of the Mozart before, but yesterday, after you had tweaked the vinyl playback settings, it was stellar -- I'll post some impressions on your system thread shortly. It was also great to discuss with you in person different aspects of string quartet/quintet performance and sound.
After coming home I listened again to my recording of the early Beethoven string quartets (op. 18; Emerson quartet on DGG), which indeed has a very different tonal balance from your recording of Mozart string quintets. I decided to switch off completely the subwoofer for comparison after listening with my regular subwoofer setting. The overall balance did not change; the full and earthy sounding violins still blended very much with the timbre of viola and cello when playing in their low register, which Beethoven frequently employs. They only distinguished themselves timbrally when soaring towards the higher regions of the middle register and beyond. Also, viola and cello still had that prominent sound of equal partners to the violins. So they seemed to still 'cover up' some of the violin sound. The only difference with subwoofer on was that the cello sounded less dry and its mid-bass body and its resonance acoustically matched better the full sound of the violins. Thus my conclusion is that there was no issue with the subwoofer setting after all. You'll hear the comparison next time.
I listened to other quartet recordings, including a Mozart quartet, and here the violins sounded lighter and more distinct from the timbres of viola and cello, as we heard in your system.
***
As for your other comments, I agree that live string quartet sound very much depends on the venue and the listening position in the hall (something apparently captured in the different recordings discussed above), and the balance also depends on the playing. Here are a few of more recent impressions.
Last year I attended a concert with the excellent Takacs quartet, playing Bartok string quartets in the Jordan Hall of New England Conservatory, Boston. I sat in row 4, pretty much in front of the stage, but the ensemble chose, for whatever reason, to sit in the middle of the large stage, which made it sound rather distant. Violin sound was rather dark even though very detailed and still with some silky sheen, while mid-bass energy from the cello was somewhat subdued. Another concert featured the Arditti quartet, perhaps the greatest string quartet for modern avantgarde, in the concert hall of the ICA (Institute of Contemporary Art) in Boston *). The sound in this exciting concert, where I sat quite close the performers, was much more expanded in frequency range. The first violin, with shimmering high register, had the most detailed and transparent sound that I have ever heard from that instrument, and to the low end the body of the cello had more weight. On yet another occasion I heard avantgarde string quartet playing in the small venue 'The Lilipad' in Cambridge, Mass. There the sound balance was rather close to the sound of that Beethoven quartet in my system.
As for accuracy of reproduction, this is a problematic idea in my view. One can never know where the microphones were placed, which microphones were used (they all 'hear' differently) and which studio monitors were used for mixing, and where. It is well documented that the same monitor delivers very different in-room frequency responses in different studios around the world. You allude to the problems here by mentioning the mastering job. So how can you know if reproduction is 'accurate', in the sense of precisely reflecting what was actually heard at the event? I very much prefer the concept of believability, or realistic sound as you mention. There is a certain range of sound that can be judged believable in comparison with live events, and that range can be wide yet always shows certain features that must be present in order to be experienced as realistic.
Yes, let's attend some more string quartets together.
________________
*) This venue has one of the best acoustics that I have ever heard (I have attended other concerts there too). Interestingly, next to a lot of wood (and concrete) it features a large window front which, however, is a bit recessed from the stage to the left, and very much so to the back, and I suppose the glass is laminated (it is a high rise building).
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Great post Al. I agree with these observations that we can not really know what the actual performance sounded like if we were not there. And each hall, each instrument, and each performer sounds different. This speaks to the idea that there is actually no real "absolute sound" per se. The best we can hope for is for the reproduction to sound convincing or believable, as you say. And an adjective that I find more and more useful to describe these things is "natural".
My favorite systems are ones that sound natural to me. When I hear obvious distortions, glare, etch, what have you, I quickly loose interest. And if I get fatigued after thirty minutes of listening, I know there is something seriously wrong.
I look forward to coming back and hearing more music at your place and also some more live performances of smaller scale music.
My favorite systems are ones that sound natural to me. When I hear obvious distortions, glare, etch, what have you, I quickly loose interest. And if I get fatigued after thirty minutes of listening, I know there is something seriously wrong.
I look forward to coming back and hearing more music at your place and also some more live performances of smaller scale music.
I didn't notice you had different brand of amps earlier, does BP make custom supplies for any amplifier or was this a special commission?
david
Hi David,
the Borderpatrol MB power supplies work in general with low to low-medium powered (up to 50 W) tube amplifiers, with 300B/VV30B/2A3/6B4G/ EL84/EL34/6L6/5881 push-pull or single-ended amps, see:
http://borderpatrol.net/powersupply.htm
They also make the even more massive EXD power supplies, see for example this review:
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/borderpatrol_p20_exd_exs.htm
That's a very interesting concept and product, didn't think it possible. I've seen the PS menu on their site but never really looked at it thinking it was only some kind of upgrade to their own electronics.
david
Hi Al,
I am using Revel F208 floorstanding speakers and would like to follow your way to augment the main speakers with a subwoofer. I have got a Revel B110 subwoofer.
May I know what crossover point you set for the Rel Storm III subwoofer?
Thank you.
I am using Revel F208 floorstanding speakers and would like to follow your way to augment the main speakers with a subwoofer. I have got a Revel B110 subwoofer.
May I know what crossover point you set for the Rel Storm III subwoofer?
Thank you.
Hi Lateboomer,
my subwoofer crossover is set at 41 Hz. The main speakers are linear down to about 70 Hz, and have still significant output down to 60 or 50 Hz. The idea is that the sub rolls in as the main speakers roll out, and they meet somewhere in the middle. If you want to believe Madfloyd's testimony in the thread (you should because I think the same
), he cannot hear the crossover frequency anymore, and the response is quite linear. Many people make the mistake to set the subwoofer crossover too high, not realizing that the set frequency is a "rolloff frequency" (named such in the table on the sub), not a cut-off frequency (for the Revel sub it will be the same). Your speakers measure -3dB at 31 Hz, if the Stereophile review has the specifications right, so I would start with the lowest crossover frequency (probably 20-22 Hz), dial in the volume gradually, and go up from there in set frequency if needed. On rock, bass drum and bass should be full sounding, but at the same time drums should not sound bloated or overly heavy, and the notes of the bass should not be boomy, otherwise you have a mid/mid-low bass bloat (in classical, the low string section of an orchestra should not sound bloated, in jazz dial in on the stand-up bass sounding right). The beauty of course is that you can set your sub individually for each recording, but I do that on the volume level, not on the crossover level (rare exceptions aside, when the recording really does not want to cooperate).
Al
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