Guys, I've always struggled on the times I've tried toeing my spkrs straight out. I'm perplexed this works for both of you.
I have owned the Ensemble Reference with the outstanding Landmark dedicated stands in the 90's and later the B&W Silver Signature SS25 -all are still playing in a radius closer than 5 km from me! Both played straight ahead and it was not just for aesthetic reasons, but for sound quality reasons. I am somewhat astonished that we are now referring to it as a revolutionary move ...
IMHO, it all depends on speaker dispersion , positioning and the boundaries - there is no magic recipe for it.
In my room the XLF and Quad ESL63 need a bit of toe-in .
I had the pleasure of hearing Al's system again last night. The big change since I last heard it was that Al decided to aim the speakers straight ahead, parallel to the side walls of his room. His explanation was that he wanted to adjust the tone for the "Winter conditions" of his room. He said that the lower humidity at this time of year changes the sound, and aiming the speakers straight ahead added more body to the sound.
I listened, and did notice a slight change in tonal quality, but that change was much less significant than the overall impression I had after three hours of listening. THE SOUND WAS MORE ALIVE!
Al's system has always impressed me with its ability to sound big and effortless. The sound is lively. The soundstage is wide and deep, dynamics are incredible, rhythm is always foot-tapping, and there is a nice sense of presence. These qualities have remained throughout his many recent changes. I had really enjoyed the last visit with the addition of his new preamp. Timbre improved, and it was a good, clean sound, but it was a sound that I tended to identify as individual attributes and not as an organic whole.
I learned a lot from last night's session. It confirmed for me what I have been hearing in my own system with various recent changes, one being to also set up my speakers to aim straight ahead. It is this: there is a difference between a system sounding lively, and one in which the music comes ALIVE. Lively can be good, effortless dynamics and a sense of rhythm. Al had that. But as last night made clear, it is not enough.
The most recent iteration of the sound of Al's system was a very good, clean representation of the digital recording. Impressive, in fact. But last night, that sound was much more like what I hear from a live performance. The music breathed. The room was much more energized, the system disappeared even more than usual. I heard the gestalt of the performance in his listening room. It simply sounded more like the real thing. It had been easy to describe Al's sound as a series of sonic attributes. Last night, the sound was more wholistic, a more complete experience. The musicians were nicely spaced and separated, with good scale, but the sound from their instruments now overlapped, filled the spaces, and consumed the front half of his room completely. I thought less about the sound per se and more about the music and the performance.
Art Pepper + Eleven, Holst's Planets, and a solo soprano and choir on Cantata Domino were particularly life-like. It is impressive that the music sounded so convincing in these different genres. The recordings are all good, but I was left with the impression that simply pointing the two mini monitors straight ahead has really transformed the sound of his system in a very exciting way. The experience was much less about the system this time, and more about the music.
Congratulations, Al.
With the full toe out, imaging has changed. As in your system, images are not sharply outlined anymore. There is no 'pinpoint' imaging anymore which is a hifi effect. When you sit live at a good distance from the stage, everything is "one big mono". Yet when you sit within the radius within which the portion of direct sound is still greater than the portion of reflected sound, you can easily localize the instruments -- yet without clear and sharp outlines. This is what I also now hear in both our systems. The precise "hifi" outlines are gone.
Great questions Tim. Would be really good to be able to use opportunities like this where two experienced listeners both equate a similar fundamental shift in speaker (ie no toe) strategy bringing about what they both determine is a more convincing and natural sound.It's funny to me that I run into these comments in Al's thread - in a different context I was just writing about these same sonic characteristics. Some electronics can yield similar, so they are not unique to speaker position.
Not just image outlines but dimensionality is also impacted.
Many speaker manufacturers suggest some degree of toe-in. (Iirc the only speakers I've had not toed-in were Maggies.) Among those that do, it makes me wonder if the toe-in recommendation is meant to create the very characteristics you find gone missing with a straight-ahead position? In other words do such manufacturers believe the toed-in sound is the best their speakers offer or do they do it because that's what they think audiophiles want?
Is that idealized sound (if I may call it that) perpetuated when manufacturers set up their speakers in reviewer's rooms and it gets reported as such, and typically quite favorably. With the absence of such sound a detractant. How often I read end-user remarks about the whole pin-point imaging thing, crisply defined performer outlines, dimensional performer images stuff as highly favorable indicators of success. Are the marketplace or high-end reviews unwittingly 'teaching' us this type of sound is what we should seek - a self reinforcing notion?
Granted, many do seem to enjoy it.
That’s because Zu is usually meant to be toed in. It all depends on the speaker radiation pattern/room.
But Keith, Wilson's are meant to have specific toe in, yet Christian now has them straight out.That’s because Zu is usually meant to be toed in. It all depends on the speaker radiation pattern/room.
Great questions Tim. Would be really good to be able to use opportunities like this where two experienced listeners both equate a similar fundamental shift in speaker (ie no toe) strategy bringing about what they both determine is a more convincing and natural sound.
Would be great to pin down what is specifically the outcome in listening that shifts the focus into a more calmly centred and evenly perceptually balanced place.
Is it just shelving down to a more mid-centric place where we are just better seated in the core flow of the music and less driven to be drawn to chase across the varying upper sensations and distractions of the soundfield.
If this fusses up your thread Al, we can skip this.
Wilson are voiced for people with smallish roomsBut Keith, Wilson's are meant to have specific toe in, yet Christian now has them straight out.
Unfortunately nothing I’ve tried worked for summer sound, I’m very sensitive to summer’s compression and distortion and it’s everywhere. You hear it even listening to the car radio and movie theaters with their horrible thx sound are even more distorted and painful in summer.Thank you, Peter, for this report! I am glad you enjoyed the system, and how it conveys the music, so much.
I am not sure if I experience the changes as dramatically as you do, but I will try to add some thoughts.
With the full toe out, imaging has changed. As in your system, images are not sharply outlined anymore. There is no 'pinpoint' imaging anymore which is a hifi effect. When you sit live at a good distance from the stage, everything is "one big mono". Yet when you sit within the radius within which the portion of direct sound is still greater than the portion of reflected sound, you can easily localize the instruments -- yet without clear and sharp outlines. This is what I also now hear in both our systems. The precise "hifi" outlines are gone.
Perhaps that is what gives you the impression of the sound being ALIVE, it is in this aspect much more like the real thing now. The lack of neat separation of sounds from one another into their own little entities, which previously was dividing up the sound field as it were, perhaps contributes to your impression of the room being more energized. I assume that the same lack of, artificial, separation is also responsible for the music being a more holistic experience, an experience that I also share.
Apart from my findings that tonal balance of my speakers can be quite significantly modulated by toe in, your full speaker toe out, suggested by ddk (thanks, David!), also inspired me to try that again. At a previous time, when the speakers were 4 inches further apart, it was not successful. I guess what we both have now is more like the "natural sound" that David refers to.
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Now in the winter, with low indoor humidity and low outside temperatures, the toe out quite well corrects my tonal balance. With more toe in the sound becomes thinner and brighter. The low humidity affects transmission of high frequencies, and the low outside temperatures appear to modulate the acoustic properties of my wooden house walls (3 of the 4 room walls are outside walls).
In the summer the sound would be far too dull with this speaker configuration. Previously I would have compensated for the summer change in acoustics with speaker setup (toe in), now I plan for the summer as much as possible to change the room acoustics around the same speaker setup. I can turn the TubeTraps from their absorptive side to their diffusive side, and perhaps even remove the upper (stacked) corner TubeTraps. I cannot remove room treatment completely; unlike your room mine is an acoustic disaster without treatment. Possibly I will still need some toe in for the summer, but I'll try to keep it to a minimum.
Unfortunately nothing I’ve tried worked for summer sound, I’m very sensitive to summer’s compression and distortion and it’s everywhere. You hear it even listening to the car radio and movie theaters with their horrible thx sound are even more distorted and painful in summer.
david
Unfortunately nothing I’ve tried worked for summer sound, I’m very sensitive to summer’s compression and distortion and it’s everywhere. You hear it even listening to the car radio and movie theaters with their horrible thx sound are even more distorted and painful in summer.
david
I guess living in a tropical location is out for you then!Unfortunately nothing I’ve tried worked for summer sound, I’m very sensitive to summer’s compression and distortion and it’s everywhere. You hear it even listening to the car radio and movie theaters with their horrible thx sound are even more distorted and painful in summer.
david
I have owned the Ensemble Reference with the outstanding Landmark dedicated stands in the 90's and later the B&W Silver Signature SS25 -all are still playing in a radius closer than 5 km from me! Both played straight ahead and it was not just for aesthetic reasons, but for sound quality reasons. I am somewhat astonished that we are now referring to it as a revolutionary move ...
IMHO, it all depends on speaker dispersion , positioning and the boundaries - there is no magic recipe for it.
In my room the XLF and Quad ESL63 need a bit of toe-in .
It's funny to me that I run into these comments in Al's thread - in a different context I was just writing about these same sonic characteristics. Some electronics can yield similar, so they are not unique to speaker position.
Not just image outlines but dimensionality is also impacted.
I guess living in a tropical location is out for you then!