My Personal Experience With Detailed Speaker Setup - I'm Finally There

[Chop]

I am curious if anyone hears the timing diference between the oboe and bass in the two recordings. I am concerned that since no one has said anything that the timing is obscured too much in the videos.

I can hear the difference. That's weird, if they were tapped as lightly as the video (I have no reason to disbelieve you)

 

[sbnx]

I'm curious if any instruments were used along the way during the setup process or if its all being done by ear? Maybe something as simple as an SPL meter or maybe an SPL meter with signal sweeps being played back so you could see/confirm changes taking place?

I've witnessed in my own room where one speaker was almost 8db louder than the other speaker was after a better than average attempt was made during initial setup. At the time this was done using only tape measures, laser pointers, levels..etc. But after some time had passed I would start noticing that the sound stage and output level seemed a bit more pronounced in that Right channel compared to the Left one. Once I broke down and pulled out my calibrated SPL meter and measured it, the problem became quite clear but without the Meter I couldn't really be sure what was going on.

In any case, the fix was a very small movement of one of the speakers that was measuring almost 8db louder. I would consider this a small movement but it was more than 1/16th. Maybe an 1/8-1/4" of the whole speaker itself... to the Left.

My assumption was that the ceiling peak on that side of the room that didn't exist on the other side of the room was a contributing factor and the small movement kicked the speaker out just enough to leave that gain zone it was apparently sitting in.

I guess my point being, I don't doubt that very small movements can make a difference but its hard to imagine how someone can really tell what is going on unless, at minimum, an SPL meter is being used along the way.

I cant say for sure if an SPL meter was being used in the case of this post or not and I'm certainly not suggesting that one wasn't used. I only bring this up because it wasn't clear how these very small movements (1/16th) were being confirmed outside of someone's hearing capabilities.

No instruments were used other than a tape measure and a digital level.

Music covers a very wide frequency range. Drums can be down in the 40 Hz range. A piano covers a range of 27Hz to 4.4kHz. The human voice covers a range from just below 100Hz to just above 1000Hz. If listening to a broad enough range of music an 8dB peak would stick out somewhere and the speaker would be adjusted.

 

[sbnx]

I can hear the difference. That's weird, if they were tapped as lightly as the video (I have no reason to disbelieve you)

Ok. That is good that you could hear the difference. I know it is weird. Again, I had to tap the spacehorn (close to 200lbs) several times (5 or so) to get from the first recording to the second one. I am not tryin to send anyone on a wild goose chase. Give this a try and see what you think. Of course, you don't have a spacehorn but rather you would like to align the right speaker to the left speaker.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

acc to friend of mine who has lots of recordings and live sound experience, a kickdrum if placed on a low platform, can reach down to 5 hz

 

[sbnx]

I don't doubt that at all. When looking at the frequency spectrum of drum whacks (e.g. Death Row) using Audacity there is definitely some very low frequency information (<10Hz).

 

[Lagonda]

acc to friend of mine who has lots of recordings and live sound experience, a kickdrum if placed on a low platform, can reach down to 5 hz

Where have you set the limiter on the Powersoft amp Leif ? Does the high damping factor blend well with the SET amps of the main speakers ? Trying to do my homework.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

no limiter
yes

 

[andromedaaudio]

No instruments were used other than a tape measure and a digital level.

Music covers a very wide frequency range. Drums can be down in the 40 Hz range. A piano covers a range of 27Hz to 4.4kHz. The human voice covers a range from just below 100Hz to just above 1000Hz. If listening to a broad enough range of music an 8dB peak would stick out somewhere and the speaker would be adjusted.

I always test with piano and organ music because it covers the X over region .


Musical Instruments - Frequency ranges:
Approximate or typical values in Hz. Fundamentals only.

Organ, 32 ft pipe 16 to 8k Hz
Piano, full size grand 27.5 - A, to 4186, top C
Harp 30 to 2500
Double Bassoon 33 to 350
Double Bass 41 to 380
Bass Tuba 42 to 380
Timpani 45 to ?
Bassoon 60 to 700
French Horn 70 to 600
'Cello 70 to 850
Bass Clarinet 75 to 700
Guitar 82 to 700
Trombone 85 to 500
Snare Drum 80 to ?
Kettle Drum 96 to ?
Banjo 110 to 800
Viola 150 to 1500
Clarinet 150 to 1700
Trumpet 190 to 980
Violin 196 to 3200
Oboe 210 to 1700
Flute 300 to 2500
Cymbals about 350 to 16000
Piccolo 450 to 3800

Human voice
Bass 90 to 300
Baritone 110 to 400
Tenor 150 to 500
Alto 190 to 700
Soprano 280 to 1050

The upper limits of drums are not stated as it is more about transients than frequency.

 

[sbo6]

To Analog Scott:

I, too, am skeptical about reports like this. But that doesn't necessarily mean sbnx is not 100% correct on both the sonic importance of tiny speaker position movements and on his ability to hear differences due to tiny speaker position movements.

If you and I are skeptical it means we have to face the very real possibility that our hearing simply isn't as good as is sbnx's hearing on these particular sonic dimensions.* Our hearing simply may not be good enough to discern the particular differences due to tiny speaker position changes sbnx is reporting.

* Obviously, different people are different, and different people have different hearing sensitivities and different hearing strengths and weaknesses. I think I'm better than average at being able to discern channel imbalance and overall tonal balance and a sense of transparency on vocals. I think I am worse than average at being able to discern ambient soundstaging cues and proper integration of drivers.

Or the very real possibility that such miniscule gradations of changes aren't audible to us all. There is no evidence, it's all conjecture. I think they call this faith. ;-)

 

[Ron Resnick]

Or the very real possibility that such miniscule gradations of changes aren't audible to us all. There is no evidence, it's all conjecture. I think they call this faith. ;-)

1) This argument is inopposite because Todd hears these changes.

2) This argument proves too much, because it indicts about 95% of everything we talk about and report and do in this hobby.

 

[sbo6]

1) This argument is inopposite because Todd hears these changes.

2) This argument proves too much, because it indicts about 95% of everything we talk about and report and do in this hobby.

1) Congrats, you have officially drunk the Kool Aid. BTW, I can hear a .00001" speaker position change. Even outside of my room. I am an audiophile with a "high - end" system; I said it, therefore it is true.

2) I'm sorry to read this, as when we stop questioning, we stop learning. Some things are more important than hits and $.

 

[Macattack]

Perhaps the point has been made already but I believe the slight movements of speakers are to optimize the speaker / room interaction which yields the ‘moment of excellence’ at the listening position.

In my experience, that ‘moment’ releases the ‘head in the Vice’ conflict that some fear. Others have described how multiple listening positions in their room suffer very little loss in SQ when things are setup for the ‘moment’. That’s what I have experienced.

I should add that I also started my setup by finding the listening position(s) that afford the smoothest bass response a’ la Jim Smith’s advice. Then I work to find the optimal speaker to room position within the general rules of a triangle using that listening position as the anchor. It is definitely a trial and error process which I enjoy.