My Theory of Sonic Cues to Explain Different Sounding Systems

[bonzo75]

A-ha! Evidence to support my other theory:

With sufficient live music listening experience and sufficient audio system auditioning experience eventually musical genre preference (classical, here) drives loudspeaker preference (horns, here).

Yes when you had originally said that, I had replied while some horns are best only for classical and jazz, others are also the best for rock

 

[Ron Resnick]

Speakers absolutely do not care what sort of music you play through them and cannot favor a certain genre. There is no known way to cause any electronics to favor a certain musical genre. Classical has nothing to do with it. Horns are simply very good at reducing thermal compression so they easily sound more dynamic. That helps all forms of music, not just classical. Or do I misunderstand your post?

Please let's discuss this other theory here if you wish:

Theory That Musical Genre Preference Drives Loudspeaker Preference

I believe that after an audiophile has sufficient experience listening to live music, and sufficient experience listening to evolved and refined audio systems in people’s homes or at loudspeaker manufacturer factories or in dealer salons (I am trying to exclude audio shows here), eventually...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[morricab]

I don't think sonic enjoyment has anything to do with the equipment. As in SET vs High Power. I feel it has more to do with tuning. Is the equipment reacting well in the room. Is the power very clean. Are the walls and floor/ceiling stable. Are appropriate treatments helping to achieve a somewhat even frequency response with little phase aberrations. I have sat in front of all sorts of systems and any that are in a good room that is tuned well makes my toe tap. My personal sonic choice for my system is purely personal. I actually think it is a conscious deviation from my past life experiences. I purposely said I want to make my stereo sound like my Yamaha steel string acoustic guitar. I wanted to play along to songs and have it realistic. But there sure was something to cranking The Who with my CJ Premier 140 and Sonus Faber speakers that I don't get out of what I have now. A totally different and very pleasurable experience in itself. I miss that stereo. I would not build it again. But it sure played rock well.

We will have to disagree...the electronics are fundamental to good sound, IMO. The other things you mentioned are of course also important. You have to live with a system sometimes to hear where it is falling short. Just visiting, quick in, quick out, will only give you a birdseye view of the sound. A friend of mine has taken care of all this tuning that you mention and still when he puts on his Plinius Class A amp, I dutifully comment that it sounds not bad but the minute we switch to his Ayon Helios PSET or his Unison Research S6 (PSE(UL)) amps I am like "AH...now that's music". For me it is just too obvious that the other amps sound less flat, less grain and more vivid tonality...simply more like live.

it sounds like you have thrown the baby out with the bath water if you are finding your current system can't do all genres well. Maybe it shouldn't but it is nice to have variety... My system sounds really great with rock like Tool and Yes etc. but also with Scandinavian jazz, electronic or classical (particularly chamber music but better recorded bigger works as well). That said, I like to play my rock mostly in the car because of how the sound envelopes you and massages you in a car...It is probably also state dependent learning...I heard most of the great rock through the car radio.

 

[Al M.]

We will have to disagree...the electronics are fundamental to good sound, IMO. The other things you mentioned are of course also important. You have to live with a system sometimes to hear where it is falling short. Just visiting, quick in, quick out, will only give you a birdseye view of the sound. A friend of mine has taken care of all this tuning that you mention and still when he puts on his Plinius Class A amp, I dutifully comment that it sounds not bad but the minute we switch to his Ayon Helios PSET or his Unison Research S6 (PSE(UL)) amps I am like "AH...now that's music". For me it is just too obvious that the other amps sound less flat, less grain and more vivid tonality...simply more like live.

it sounds like you have thrown the baby out with the bath water if you are finding your current system can't do all genres well. Maybe it shouldn't but it is nice to have variety... My system sounds really great with rock like Tool and Yes etc. but also with Scandinavian jazz, electronic or classical (particularly chamber music but better recorded bigger works as well). That said, I like to play my rock mostly in the car because of how the sound envelopes you and massages you in a car...It is probably also state dependent learning...I heard most of the great rock through the car radio.

Agreed.

Electronics are of paramount importance.

A system should play all music well.

 

[Atmasphere]

Please let's discuss this other theory here if you wish:

Theory That Musical Genre Preference Drives Loudspeaker Preference

I believe that after an audiophile has sufficient experience listening to live music, and sufficient experience listening to evolved and refined audio systems in people’s homes or at loudspeaker manufacturer factories or in dealer salons (I am trying to exclude audio shows here), eventually...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Its not theory that speakers do not favor genre- that's simple fact. But I placed a post over there as well.

 

[PeterA]

You want to hear the best sounding systems in the world, they belong to the most knowledgeable individuals. No amount of money can circumvent actually knowing the elements at play and psychoacoustics.



Everyone knows who the top dogs are around here with the best sounding systems and we also know all the ones that like to pretend they know something or think that they have something special.

Carlos, I have heard what I think of as one of these systems in the world. I consider myself very lucky to have done so.

I am glad to have heard your systems through videos here, and found it interesting that you seemed to modify one a bit after comments from members about the sound. You were working on your device at the time as I recall.

 

[PeterA]

Speakers absolutely do not care what sort of music you play through them and cannot favor a certain genre. There is no known way to cause any electronics to favor a certain musical genre. Classical has nothing to do with it. Horns are simply very good at reducing thermal compression so they easily sound more dynamic. That helps all forms of music, not just classical. Or do I misunderstand your post?

I do not know Ralph. The only speakers I ever broke were my old Magico Mini IIs. I did it twice, and it was with loud rock music. Never happened with other types of music. Perhaps those speakers did in fact care what music I played through them.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, I have heard what I think of as one of these systems in the world. I consider myself very lucky to have done so.

I am glad to have heard your systems through videos here, and found it interesting that you seemed to modify one a bit after comments from members about the sound. You were working on your device at the time as I recall.

Glad that you pointed this passage out. To be able to adjust a certain parameter, aspect, or attribute of a system’s presentation without adversely impacting anything else takes a great deal of knowledge and skill.

I increased the “wood” overtones on the presentation of my WAAR system through my system Remastering process to addressed what Brad, Morricab, thought was a deficiency in the presentation. I did this not only to illustrate the power of my system remastering process but to also take on the challenge to do it surgically and precisely and to a degree that would impact Brad’s observations of the system’s sound and of the power of the system remastering process. Somehow, it feels like you interpret my actions as if I was influenced by others; I can assure you that was not the case. I freely concede that Brad is more familiar with the tone and overall character of the sound of the violin since his ex-wife played it at home and in his presence routinely. The real power there was having the knowledge to make the required changes, without changing equipment, to address the issue. It was/is strictly just the “Wood” setting, which is different than my “Carlos269” setting on the system-remastering process for my WAAR system.

No matter where I am in this world, I know exactly where I stand.

 

[Atmasphere]

I do not know Mike. The only speakers I ever broke were my old Magico Mini IIs. I did it twice, and it was with loud rock music. Never happened with other types of music. Perhaps those speakers did in fact care what music I played through them.

Who is Mike?

What failed in the Magicos?

 

[PeterA]

Glad that you point it out, to be able to adjust a certain parameter, aspect, or attribute of a system’s presentation without adversely impacting anything else takes a great deal of knowledge and skill.

I increased the “wood” overtones on the presentation of my WAAR system through my system Remastering process to addressed what Brad, Morricab, thought was a deficiency in the presentation. I did this not only to illustrate the power of my system remastering process but to also take in the challenge to do it surgically and precise and to the level that would impact Brad. Somehow, it feels like you interpret this as if I was influenced by others; I can assure you that was not the case. I freely concede that Brad is more familiar with the tone and overall character of the sound of the violin since his ex-wife played it at home and in his presence routinely. The real power there was having the knowledge to make the required changes, without changing equipment, to address the issue. It was Strickland the “Wood” setting, which is differ than my “Carlos269” setting on the system-remastering system for my WAAR system.

No matter where I am in this world I know exactly where I stand.

I remember it well Carlos. As I recall, you appreciated comments from members who actually preferred the sound of the tube horn system to your WAAR system. That is more to what I was referring. I appreciate now and then the surgical precision with which you could make that change with your device. I also appreciate your plethora of gear and lack of typical room acoustics and set up.

I completely agree with you that knowledge and experience are essential to get to the top of this hobby. I lack both and I’m fully aware of it. Amir also discusses knowledge and experience and recommends that hobbyist seek out those people who have high degrees of both.

 

[PeterA]

Who is Mike?

What failed in the Magicos?

Sorry Ralph, I was momentarily confused and thought I was responding to Mike Lavigne. Of course you wrote that post.

The mid woofer driver failed. It was replaced and then failed again. Eventually it was fine but it took a while for the driver to be manufactured and then sent to the local dealer for installation.

 

[Carlos269]

I remember it well Carlos. As I recall, you appreciated comments from members who actually preferred the sound of the tube horn system to your WAAR system. That is more to what I was referring. I appreciate now and then the surgical precision with which you could make that change with your device. I also appreciate your plethora of gear and lack of typical room acoustics and set up.

I completely agree with you that knowledge and experience are essential to get to the top of this hobby. I lack both and I’m fully aware of it. Amir also discusses knowledge and experience and recommends that hobbyist seek out those people who have high degrees of both.

If you go back to my Remastering system thread, you can refresh yourself on the premise for wanting to implement the system remastering on my WAAR system. It was precisely to emulate the sound of my SET/Horn systems. Please reread and note the date on post #1 of the “there is a smarter way” thread as it clearly states my motivation for designing and implementing the system-Remastering process on my WAAR system:

There is a smarter way

let me know if any other clarifications are needed.

 

[PeterA]

If you go back to my Remastering system thread, you can refresh yourself on the premise for wanting to implement the system remastering on my WAAR system. It was precisely to emulate the sound of my SET/Horn systems. Please reread and note the date on post #1 of the “there is a smarter way” thread as it clearly states my motivation for designing and implementing the system-Remastering process on my WAAR system:

There is a smarter way

let me know if any other clarifications are needed.

Thank you for the links. I remember the discussion and thanked you for sharong your project publicly here. I commented at the time on various videos. I respected your willingness to accept feedback. You shared videos and people commented. I enjoyed the discussions. I do not think you need to clarify anything for me. You set a goal for yourself and you achieved it. I think I congratulated you at the time. If not I do so here.

 

[Carlos269]

Thank you for the links. I remember the discussion and thanked you for sharong your project publicly here. I commented at the time on various videos. I respected your willingness to accept feedback. You shared videos and people commented. I enjoyed the discussions. I do not think you need to clarify anything for me. You set a goal for yourself and you achieved it. I think I congratulated you at the time. If not I do so here.

Thank you. I just wish that others would truly comprehend the power of my system-Remastering process and its implications. The system-Remastering process would save adopters/users a lot of money, frustrations and disappointments.

I read Ron’s system thread and your comments. His struggles to me are anguishing and really needless as there are way to address his concerns and issues without having to pollute his beautiful room with all the active bass traps and room treatments. Ron is the perfect test subject for the system-Remastering process, but obviously he much rather buy and exchange equipment and I can only assume that he enjoys the struggle. If he only accepted that you can just dial it in, with the right knowledge, he would be satisfied and listening instead of posting hypothetical hypotheses and asking for advise on potential bandaid equipment, with unpredictable & limited effectiveness.

 

[Atmasphere]

Sorry Ralph, I was momentarily confused and thought I was responding to Mike Lavigne. Of course you wrote that post.

The mid woofer driver failed. It was replaced and then failed again. Eventually it was fine but it took a while for the driver to be manufactured and then sent to the local dealer for installation.

We had a similar problem with our Snell Bs back in the 90s. Snell replaced the woofers 2 times and then realized that some people, apparently mastering houses and us, tended to play the speakers just a little bit louder and the spiders in the woofers were failing (not the voice coils). They re-engineered the woofers, which required a bit of woodworking at our end to fit them, but no more failures and they are still playing to this day.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you. I just wish that others would truly comprehend the power of my system-Remastering process and its implications. The system-Remastering process would save adopters/users a lot of money, frustrations and disappointments.

I read Ron’s system thread and your comments. His struggles to me are anguishing and really needless as there are way to address his concerns and issues without having to pollute his beautiful room with all the active bass traps and room treatments. Ron is the perfect test subject for the system-Remastering process, but obviously he much rather buy and exchange equipment and I can only assume that he enjoys the struggle. If he only accepted that you can just dial it in, with the right knowledge, he would be satisfied and listening instead of posting hypothetical hypotheses and asking for advise on potential bandaid equipment, with unpredictable & limited effectiveness.

Carlos, I don’t think Ron wants to discuss your device here on this new thread. have you commented on his system thread? I was not aware that your WAAR system is a commercial product available for purchase. Is that what you are suggesting Ron do, or are you suggesting something different?

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, I don’t think Ron wants to discuss your device here on this new thread. have you commented on his system thread? I was not aware that your WAAR system is a commercial product available for purchase. Is that what you are suggesting Ron do, or are you suggesting something different?

The system-Remastering process is not a turn-key off the shelves product. It has to be designed, implemented, and configured according to the individual system’s needs. It can also be scaled to be as simple or as complex as needed based on the end-user’s abilities. Furthermore it can be implemented all in analog, as is the case in the WAAR system, all in digital, and in a hybrid topology. While it is not a marketed product, I am open to consultation, design, construction and commissioning of bespoke Remastering systems. Costs of these systems and for my services will vary depending on the level of equipment used and degree of adjustment & complexity. Although not inexpensive, it is as future-proof and universal a solution of this type can be. I encourage anyone interested in a system to contact me directly for a conversation and demonstration.

 

[Tim Link]

"An audiophile whose most valued sonic cue is upper bass/lower midrange "weight" and density is unlikely to select a full-range electrostatic loudspeaker."

I think I resemble that statement!

Upper bass/lower midrange weight and density is something I've often felt unsatisfied with from my own systems and others I've heard, so that's something I'm really looking for. I would add that "weight" for me also implies clarity and dynamics in that range. I'm pretty happy with my system as it is working right now, but I'm always wondering what might take it up a notch. I think there's a certain amount of recording dependence because there are times when I'm highly satisfied in this regard.

I'm not sure that a full range electrostatic can't do it, but I've not experienced one that satisfied me yet. Not saying much because I haven't spent the time to actually own one and really try to get it to to sound good for me. I've got an upright piano in my listening room, and it sets a benchmark in that regard. My nieces play their violins and I notice that bold richness from their cheap instruments that is extremely uncommon coming from a loudspeaker.

Of course, upper bass/lower midrange weight and density is not enough. I want it all, but it seems like that's a sorer spot for me.

 

[Carlos269]

"An audiophile whose most valued sonic cue is upper bass/lower midrange "weight" and density is unlikely to select a full-range electrostatic loudspeaker."

I think I resemble that statement!

Upper bass/lower midrange weight and density is something I've often felt unsatisfied with from my own systems and others I've heard, so that's something I'm really looking for. I would add that "weight" for me also implies clarity and dynamics in that range. I'm pretty happy with my system as it is working right now, but I'm always wondering what might take it up a notch. I think there's a certain amount of recording dependence because there are times when I'm highly satisfied in this regard.

I'm not sure that a full range electrostatic can't do it, but I've not experienced one that satisfied me yet. Not saying much because I haven't spent the time to actually own one and really try to get it to to sound good for me. I've got an upright piano in my listening room, and it sets a benchmark in that regard. My nieces play their violins and I notice that bold richness from their cheap instruments that is extremely uncommon coming from a loudspeaker.

Of course, upper bass/lower midrange weight and density is not enough. I want it all, but it seems like that's a sorer spot for me.

Sound involves three fundamental elements: frequency, amplitude and phase. If you have the knowledge and ability, the tools exist to get the sound you want from every system, assuming that the system is up to the changes required to achieve the objectives.

 

[Lagonda]

We had a similar problem with our Snell Bs back in the 90s. Snell replaced the woofers 2 times and then realized that some people, apparently mastering houses and us, tended to play the speakers just a little bit louder and the spiders in the woofers were failing (not the voice coils). They re-engineered the woofers, which required a bit of woodworking at our end to fit them, but no more failures and they are still playing to this day.

Bought a pair of Mini Utopias for one of the rooms in my recording studio, the woofers kept separating. After having them repaired a third time i ended up using one of them suspended from retractable piano-wires as a center channel behind a perforated screen in my home theater. They where not particularly missed in the studio, that Focal Telar Tweeter was just to hot !