Nat Audio - giant killers?

[ihmeyers]

Thanks to all that replied. The dealer will swap out the Klees for other cables he's got (in trade-ins). Right now we're thinking a pair of Crystal Clear Audio Magnum Opus or Esoteric 7N-DA2100 1.0m XLR. If anyone has suggestions on which cables will play best will the NAT I'd really appreciate it. She does seem to have a mind of her own, that's for sure. It's certainly a very different design and from what I've read here and elsewhere, no two are truly the same. I've also got a bunch of NOS PY88s I'm going to try in there that I ordered from Europe (Siemens, Telefunken, MAzda, etc.).

As far as the NAT vs the PS Audio. The PS Audio is very good; dynamic, great bass response, exciting. The NAT images better, especially width of sound-stage. It's also cleaner and quieter and sounded to me more like real music. This was especially true on jazz and small vocal groups. I don't listen much to classical, but on what I did listen to I thought the NAT did a better job of capturing the recording venue than did the PS Audio. I thought I got a decent buy on the NAT. Whether or not it stays long-term, who knows. I swap stuff in and out a lot. With PS Audio cutting the price of my preamp by 35% yesterday it's good I sold it when I did. Unfortunately I'm now way underwater on my PS Audio amp which received a similar price cut.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, how about that, each piece is VERY slightly different to the next LOL.
That’s about as customised as I will get in this hobby.
Have tried Zu Event, Audience AU24, Entreq Challenger, Sablon cables on my NATs.
Sablon far and away the best match, first Panatella/Quantum Gran Corona, now Reserva/Elite.

 

[awsmone]

KR: I know they sound great but -- purely personal and idealogical preference here -- I do not want any transistors on the ribbons. (If someone brings over a transistor or hybrid amp and I love it I happily will eat these words.)

Ron
Don’t rule out Lamm m1.2 and m2.2 Great timbre and capacity to run difficult loads

Also no mention of big class A Pass labs?, even the 30.8 is brilliant, but new 200.8 is close to xs series..very good timbre

 

[ihmeyers]

Something else I discovered today about my NAT Magnetic. The stock EI tubes aren't so great. I don't know if they've got too many hrs on them or whether they're just not very good tubes but when I swapped them out for mismatched NOS Siemens & Mullard tubes the preamp went to a whole other level. Of course it will be better to use same branded tubes in each channel but I'm waiting for pairs from Europe and I had these two singles around so I swapped just to see what the result would be.

Anyone else have an opinion on the EI PY-88 tubes or good PY-88s in general for this preamp?

 

[awsmone]

Just a mention Ron

Christian Punter from Hifi advice who has owned and gone through most ribbon speakers has just compared VTL to pass labs on his ribbons maybe drop him a line ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
Ron
Don’t rule out Lamm m1.2 and m2.2 Great timbre and capacity to run difficult loads

Also no mention of big class A Pass labs?. . .

I am sure that each of the big hybrid amps (e.g., Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse, KR Kronzilla DXL, Lamm 1.2 and 2.2 Reference, Ypsilon SET 100 Ultimate) sounds amazing in a compatible system. I think the Pendeagon ribbon panel is not a difficult load. I look forward to trying Jeff T's Lamm 1.2s, but I want to stay all-tube.

I am sure my ears could persuade me to bridge the all-tube to hybrid divide, but all solid-state will be for me a bridge too far. People in whose ears I trust use solid-state, but I want to solve my equation with a tube amplifier.

I would like to unearth current users of NAT Magma News to get a bead on reliability. If some exotic tube amp blows up a Pendragon ribbon panel Gryphon Audio will not be amused.

Right now I am focused on Jadis JA200 Mk. II, Atma-Sphere MA-2 Mk. 3.3 and Berning Quadrature-Z. I know that 30 to 50 watts will work (Audiocrack drives his Genesis 1.1 panels with amps in that output range) but I will be more comfortable with > 100 watts. Below 100 watts I am interested in Berning 211/845 and Absolare 85 Push-Pull.

 

[bonzo75]

The old Nat distributor from Holland, who put NAT on the map drove his infinity (not the Genesis but the 201 or 202 or so) with NAT magma. I did not like it, thought it was slow and under driven. That was three years ago though, had forgotten about it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, one of the reasons I decided not to go for Henk’s or Jon’s Duettas (one amongst many), was massive doubt re ability of my Nat tube amps to drive them in my 700 sq ft/5000 cub ft room. I’m not ready to trade my tube amps in. But the moment I possibly decide to go Apogees is the moment I switch to SS, and am happy to. For this latter reason, it’s axway off. Good luck with Ron getting his tubes/ribbons/blend with SS Class AB woofer towers. It’s not a dilemma I would like to have to settle.
Btw, I found Peter’s Nat Transmitters/AA Omegas synergy, or lack of it more like, wholly underwhelming. No way are NATs on Apogees in my room going to work.

 

[bonzo75]

Did you hear his 70 w or the transmitters 120 watts. I know Ron heard the former, I heard both and preferred the latter by a margin

 

[spiritofmusic]

Transmitters. Totally totally uninspiring. I then went to Justin and within an hour was taken on an amazing journey. Graz Duettas, on earthy, textured SS is the only thing I’ll ever consider switching out my NATs/Zus for.

 

[Zero000]

But you heard the Duettas with 80 Watt valve amps LOL.

There is a very simple answer. Get Duettas and own solid state and valve amps. They needn't cost an absolute bomb, they just need to be a good match. Quite simply, though it has no cred and isn't exotic or expensive, you will have a very tough time getting a solid state amp to beat a Parasound A21 on Duettas.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes Justin, in a room 25% X the area, and 33% X the volume, of mine

 

[Zero000]

It is a planar Marc. The volume doesn't drop off with distance like a standard loudspeaker.

Anyway I know you won't be convinced no matter what but these speakers were chiefly designed with large US rooms in mind.

They are considerably larger than the speakers you have with much more radiating area. They will drive that room way better than the Zus. Honest, guv, even with 100 Watts of valve power.

 

[Zero000]

Anyway Ron is going to sell you his big VTLs for a bargain price. Soon. Real soon No excuses then (wink).

 

[bonzo75]

It is a planar Marc. The volume doesn't drop off with distance like a standard loudspeaker.

Anyway I know you won't be convinced no matter what but these speakers were chiefly designed with large US rooms in mind.

They are considerably larger than the speakers you have with much more radiating area. They will drive that room way better than the Zus. Honest, guv, even with 100 Watts of valve power.

True. As this review states, "This means that at a one-meter distance both drivers' outputs are about the same, but at four meters the planar loudspeaker sounds twice as loud. " He is comparing cone drivers to planar drivers.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1006/midmonth/analysis_audio_amphitryon.htm

 

[GMKF]

I would like to unearth current users of NAT Magma News to get a bead on reliability. If some exotic tube amp blows up a Pendragon ribbon panel Gryphon Audio will not be amused.

Custom indirect speaker protection circuit ?
Crowbar arrangement with thyristor that melts a fuse that is switched into the amp power cord, by vaporising the fuse the amp is off and no damage should occur. The detection of souch a failure can be done by placing a hall effect sensor on the input of the ribbons.
Just an idea...

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Ked and Justin, room size/volume has no, or minimal, bearing on performance of Duettas?
We’re really saying that my room at 18’ wide, and 38’ deep, is equally suitable for Justin’s Duettas spec than his 11x18 room, using his amps power output?
Really?

 

[bonzo75]

So Ked and Justin, room size/volume has no, or minimal, bearing on performance of Duettas?
We’re really saying that my room at 18’ wide, and 38’ deep, is equally suitable for Justin’s Duettas spec than his 11x18 room, using his amps power output?
Really?

Bass can be an issue in terms of bass loss, but that only a demo can tell. I say that only because in Henk's large room Duettas have less bass. Christoph said that his big room was fine with Scintillas, though he did lose bass with Studio grands (same panel size as duettas and he switched off the woofers). But IMO he would have lost with Zus too, so if you are not losing with Zus (since he is losing some with Odeon Nr. 38 as opposed to his friend with Nr. 32 in a smaller room), you should not with Duettas. His room apart from being big has many openings to other rooms + glass

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, the NATs only power the 10” full range drivers, and tweeters, down to 40Hz.
40Hz to sub-20Hz are covered by 350W/ch Hypex Class D powering 10” downfiring subs.
Switch these subs off, and bass energisation of room falls off significantly.

 

[microstrip]

True. As this review states, "This means that at a one-meter distance both drivers' outputs are about the same, but at four meters the planar loudspeaker sounds twice as loud. " He is comparing cone drivers to planar drivers.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1006/midmonth/analysis_audio_amphitryon.htm

Only if you are measuring the speaker sensitivity in anechoic conditions. However planar manufacturers mostly lists an "equivalent" specification of sensitivity, that is taken at the a "typical" listening distance in a "typical" room. Remember that most planar manufacturers do not own or use large anechoic chambers.