New forum created for subjectivist members

[amirm]

Let's not be recisionist.
Creation of this for has nothing to with protecting subjectivist and everything to do with protecting objectivist and pressing your agenda. You previously stated there is aconspiracy to drive objectivist from this forum and you were not going to allow it. That was the post that prompted me to suggest you take a vacation. In that thread I already told you why I think segregation is a bad idea.
I have no intent of participating in any such thread or doing anything that would lend it credibility. I have no desire to put lipstic on a pig.
A safe haven for subjectivist and objectivist alike should be WBF as a whole. That's why I came here.

Again, every part of the forum is available for mixed participation. If that is what you want, you have it. If a thread is created in these two more restricted forums and you want to challenge it simply quote it in the General Audio Discussion forum and go to town.

Edit: if you want to sit it out, by all means do that. I am not here forcing anyone to use it. Lack of use will provide data on its own....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have to agree with this post as this is the very premise with which I continue to have a problem. This is not a matter of subjectivists vs objectivists so please let us not lose sight of what the real issue is and why we continue to look for bandaids to repair something which cannot be repaired as long as this status quo exists. Gregg hit the nail on the head. Jack has alluded to the fact that an owner administrator should act like a host and remain neutral on topics. The fact remains that this forum has found itself in similar circumstances on several occasions since June of last year when the PeterB meltdown occurred. If one is to search the history of these troubled threads one will quickly determine that there is a common denominator (one person) that seems always to be the match that sparks the fire and it all boils down to what Gregg said. The admin team has been so overwhelmed with complaints and reported posts that frankly we were always seeming to be putting out the same fire in which Amir seems to reside. This has proved beyond difficult due to the double standard re our TOS. The mods have been told in no uncertain terms to stay out of things so we have been walking on egg shells

Well if Amir has to choose between being an admin and having an opinion, I hope he chooses his opinion. It's one of the most valuable opinions left on this forum, and the work he does to substantiate it is much more valuable than hall monitor duties. I was an admin once, back in the old days, and I resigned that post because I couldn't be neutral. That worked for me. Regarding matches, I think a more accurate analogy would be he has left matches behind, and the children have played with them.

Tim

 

[PeterA]

the forum is and should be a reflection of the hobby, that's largely subjective! (is it not?). what cracks me up is the fundamentalist objectivists come into a thread full of subjective sentiment but dont produce measurements?? they just shut down people's right to express their subjective experiences.

the forum is one big subjective area with a small and very poorly attended measurement area. having a joke, a bit of fun is ok imo so is disagreeing with others but this trend certain members have of completely shutting down others is wrong.. leaving no room for conversation, that's rude. also the trend to be false and just kiss arse is equally unrewarding and unhelpful imo.

there are a few too many ultras on both sides of the fence, guys who think spending $200000 on hifi means they are the ultimate audiophile and cannot be opposed and equally the guys who 'think' they know better because the can use a scope and know what crocodile clips are.

really just a bit of common sense with the running of the site (at the moment that's impossible i know) would work wonders, not some subjectivist 'we are the ultimate audiophiles' old boys club mentality and equally not 'we are the objectivist truth bringers all hail the truth and be known how foolish you all have been spending you money'.

the above is the status quo since i have been here. two camps, equally unbalanced and elitist in their own way.

you need to moderate, ill feeling and nasty posts.. aggressive posts, really look at the intent rather than getting preoccupied by naughty words or a bit of fun. guys who follow each other around endlessly arguing and bitching between themselves, just have a look in 'placebo effects in the extreme' and the ' entreq' threads. those guys should go on a date and rent a room.

I agree with this comment, spazmatron. Yet, when I wrote something similar in the State of High End Audio thread, I was immediately chastised for being off topic, and a constant complainer by one of the site founders. I am curious to see if your comment gets a similar response.

Edited to show spazmatron's complete post. The statement in bold is very much what I have written before. I hope that clarifies my point.

 

[amirm]

This has proved beyond difficult due to the double standard re our TOS. The mods have been told in no uncertain terms to stay out of things so we have been walking on egg shells

This is what has been stipulated to the mods which you not only agreed with, but in the case of Tom gave me your word that he understood it and will follow them, in addition to being polite towards me:

Tom and Lee, I have outlined the conduct and approach for moderators for our forum moving forward. I know this is a challenging position to be in but we have no choice but to move forward in a much more constructive way than we have in the past. To that end, here are the rules for any moderator on WBF Forum:

1. Moderators must be active members of our forum. This is required for them to gain the buy-in of the membership as otherwise they come across as security guards, only there to chastise the membership and nothing else. This will also help our forum grow. Moderators that are not interested in the forum itself, cannot play this role.

2. Moderators must treat the membership fairly with total disregard as to whether they are in their audio camp or not. Looking at their records of recommended sanctions must reflect this over months. And of course their conduct both in the admin forum and in the membership. Violating this means violating the trust of the membership to be treated fairly and immediately dismisses the person from being a moderator.

3. Moderators need to accept that Steve and I have serious disagreements regarding the forum. They must not take sides or in any way engage in battling the other co-founder. They are not brought over as the army of one co-founder versus another. They are here to help manage the membership with more eyes and ears than Steve and I can provide.

4. Moderators must embody the core value of WBF which is friendly conduct. Unfriendly behavior both in private and in public will result in them losing their post. They must at all times be the model of professionalism, emotional maturity, wisdom and thoughtfulness.

5. Moderators need to understand that they are not above our Terms of Service when conducting themselves in our admin forums.

6. Moderators cannot set policy for the forum. Only co-founders can. They can provide constructive opinion from time to time but in no occasion are they to do that in public. Legal matters is completely outside of their purview.

Please confirm that you have read and agree with these rules as written. Thank you.

Sitting here, neither have responded to that request for confirmation.

What is it about this that you agreed with but now repeatedly say is a bad thing for them or the forum?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Did not agree with that in the slightest. What I said that we did not need segregation for 5 years, not what you saying. What has happened has happened and you created one for objectivists and here we are one for subjectivists as repeatedly asked.


Nothing silly about it. We have made the measurement forum work. It is your job to go and make this one work instead of sitting here complaining. Post a topic about audio and discuss it in peace. Why are you here instead complaining about it?

Amir,

something happened with you 12-18 months ago which caused you to become more active; particularly aggressively inserting 'data' into threads and creating threads focused on measuring performance on gear.

could you right now modify your behavior? sure if you choose to....not that you would choose to.

the problem is that the consequence of your change 18 months ago is major and not something that can be undone with an edict or what you personally do....because your actions changed the balance of the forum. lots of objectivists got attracted by the conflict/action and are now part of the balance here.....and that is the current issue.. not only or even mostly you.

so we cannot un-ring that bell. but....what can be done is that moderation focus in audiophile gear forums can be modified to support the listener/experiential position. if you stay away from moderator duties of those forums then the more listener friendly moderators can keep the peace where they need to.

can that work? who knows? but to move forward from this mess it would be worth a try.

the alternative is likely many voting with their feet.

 

[Ron Party]

Every one has an opinion, and the easiest thing to do is offer one up when that one's behind is not in the hot seat. It's easy to sit in front of your computer monitor, pound your chest and try to sell your version of what will fix all evils. It even may be cathartic to do so. But everyone's you-know-what stinks. No one is holier than thou. (Did I exhaust the list of trite expressions?) Turn off that monitor. Stare into it. You likely may see your reflection and, maybe for the first time, you will see the tinted eyeglasses you're wearing. Yes, you do have an agenda. Accept it. Self-awareness can be liberating.

Does anyone have anything new to say? If you've posted in this thread more than just a couple of times, maybe, just maybe, you're part of the problem and not part of the solution?

You may think you know all of the facts, but you don't. You just don't. In light of the fact there are / may be legal underpinnings here, this whole matter will be decided in that forum, not this one.

 

[amirm]

Amir,

something happened with you 12-18 months ago which caused you to become more active; particularly aggressively inserting 'data' into threads and creating threads focused on measuring performance on gear.

could you right now modify your behavior? sure if you choose to....not that you would choose to.

I have done that Mike for the most part. I barely participate in the forum in that manner since last summer. As I stated, my interest is in music. I am OK not doing that whatsoever in any forum other than measurement forum.

the problem is that the consequence of your change 18 months ago is major and not something that can be undone with an edict or what you personally do....because your actions changed the balance of the forum. lots of objectivists got attracted by the conflict/action and are now part of the balance here.....and that is the current issue.. not only or even mostly you.

That's not correct Mike. What used to go on was that I would fight the objectivists with those graphs. Here is one of our famous threads: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1151-Audible-Jitter-amirm-vs-Ethan-Winer. It is full of measurements.

Subjectivist cheered me on when I did that. What changed was that I started to use the same reasoning with subjectivists. What a surprise to see them not wanting to hear it after they praised me when it was in the reverse context. I got worried, checked with Steve to see if it was OK to do so and for a while we both decided it was OK. Then folks got really angry and we both arrived at the same conclusion that I better stop. This was Steve's message to me: "Just a suggestion but honestly I think that a lot of members are starting to talk privately about your posts and they are becoming excessive. I think you've ridden the wave as far as it can safely take you. I suggest you ease up a bit"

So I am to the point where I have little interest in discussing audio here. Per above, I am fine to completely stop outside of the measurement forum.

so we cannot un-ring that bell. but....what can be done is that moderation focus in audiophile gear forums can be modified to support the listener/experiential position. if you stay away from moderator duties of those forums then the more listener friendly moderators can keep the peace where they need to.

I can't stop from moderation duty because my co-horts have lost all sense of fairness and want to ban every objectivist they see. I have a duty to those members to not have them be subjected to such treatment.

Convince them to act with fairness, wisdom and professionalism and I would naturally back off. It is not like it is enjoyable to do this work.

the alternative is likely many voting with their feet.

People should absolutely do that. I don't understand why instead of leaving people try to yank our chains to change the direction of the forum. Stay or don't stay. That you can do. Changing the direction of the forum is mostly out of everyone's specific control.

 

[RayDunzl]

I think I've discovered I'm a bijectivist.

What do I do?

Can I be cured?

Was it a choice, or was I born this way?

 

[RBFC]

I can't stop from moderation duty because my co-horts have lost all sense of fairness and want to ban every objectivist they see.

This is certainly not the case. I just had a pleasant PM exchange with an "objectivist" member 2 days ago. It was about recordings, not about any conflict. False generalizations do not a strong case make.

Lee

 

[rbbert]

No, it's the content. It's the fundamental disagreement. We could agree with you over and over and over again and you'd never get tired of it. And that's not personal, it's human.

Tim

Nope, I'd get just as tired of that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

People should absolutely do that. I don't understand why instead of leaving people try to yank our chains to change the direction of the forum. Stay or don't stay. That you can do. Changing the direction of the forum is mostly out of everyone's specific control.

ok.

 

[Argonaut]

I think I've discovered I'm a bijectivist.

What do I do?

Can I be cured?

Was it a choice, or was I born this way?

Sort of akin to an Audiophile Crossdresser Ray?

 

[Gregadd]

."..I can't stop from moderation duty because my cohorts have lost all sense of fairness and want to ban every objectivist they see. i have a duty to those members to not have them subjected to such treatment...."

Can you admit that is just a little paranoid and is the basis at least in part for the current impasse.

Yes I am sure I am part of the problem. it is my intent to shake things up. In a good way I hope.

 

[RayDunzl]

Sort of akin to an Audiophile Crossdresser Ray?

 

[Vincent Kars]

I would suggest “What we perceive” as a title
Subtitle “A DBT free zone!”

Or is this too much objectivist

 

[amirm]

."..I can't stop from moderation duty because my cohorts have lost all sense of fairness and want to ban every objectivist they see. i have a duty to those members to not have them subjected to such treatment...."

Can you admit that is just a little paranoid and is the basis at least in part for the current impasse.

I wish it was paranoia but it is a daily occurrence. Here is an example of reported post by Steve:

"Back when I was working in A/V retail, we used to love to sell AQ cables, because the mark-ups are huge. "

The violation is this: "If this isn't inflammatory, tell me what is."

The member's crime is being an objectivist here. In contrast if someone threatens to make Blizzard and I kiss in public in women's outifts, there won't be any action but cheering!

Yes I am sure I am part of the problem. it is my intent to shake things up. In a good way I hope.

Is making things worse from where I sit.

 

[Joe Whip]

Personally, I find this whole argument to be just silly. There should be the free flow of ideas here as long as everyone is respectful. I see no issue at all with a person in any if the two "camps" posting in any thread provided they use common courtesy and don't simply try to hijack a thread or attempt to bat people over the head with their opinions. I have seen way too much of that here by certain members. The mods need to step in more quickly and police some of this stuff. I don't see why that should be so hard.

 

[amirm]

I appreciate the sentiment Joe but "hijack" a thread is a subjective thing. Nor is it covered in our ToS.

You guys should not need us. If someone pokes a finger in your eye, just ignore them. Don't argue with them for 10 rounds and then run to us to sanction the other guy. Or say the forum is screwed while you participated in said food fight.

It is not easy to do but that is the the most productive path forward. You will learn a valuable skill and not pit Steve and I against each other.

 

[Argonaut]

View attachment 25932

Daisy Ray! Hair n makeup by spaz, defensive persona bordering on Schizophrenia by Amir, I imagine bitchy rhetoric by Purite Audio.

The complete dream package you Minx!

Myself in the Loo at CES 2015 -
image upload no size limit

 

[Folsom]

But it's just creating more arguments. What we need might be more consistent moderation when people can't get along.

Yes please.

For example in this thread Blizzards appropriate post for an invitation for an off topic contact should have been met with a PM from spaz, but instead it's a public conversation that's very unrelated, off topic. The simple thing to do is delete the posts that have no place (excluding the first with the invitation for contact). It seems like a lot of work but after a short time the forum will have a good idea about how to conduct itself so the need for intervention will decrease.

I think goals could be met if the admin/mod team can come to agreement. Diluting problems isn't an answer to me. Sometimes decisions must be made.