New Music High End Innovation Show in Brussels, October 15 & 16, 2016

[853guy]

853guy,

Allow me to say your writings are just incredible, very creative yet very "grounded"! Very good reporting there, surely better than 99% of the stuff we read online about shows...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time and writing about the YG. The Carmel 2 is indeed a fantastic speaker, and as a truly transparent (ie not "voiced") speaker, what you heard was truly a sum of everything that was in the room, including that less-than-stellar source (that I know well) and typical Class-D souding Corona. We've had our share of amps pass through the YGs, and it's very immediately obvious what they (the amps) are doing, either positive or negative. Some will make the YGs lack bass, some will have thunderous bass, some will sparkle, some others will be dull and lifeless... Such is life with a speaker that transparent

Now, tube amps pose a different challenge on the YGs, as they must have power. By far some of the most fun we had was when we demoed the YG Carmel 2s in one of our big reference rooms with the Audiopax M100 monoblocs (100W)!

And then, horns... I'm a hardcore prog guy, and from time to time, I'd lock myself up in our "horns+tubes" room (Audiopax on Avantgarde Duos), and crank some ol' Genesis or Van der Graaf Generator The involvement level is very, very high with horns! It's just a more enveloping experience, like you're in a front-row seat, as opposed to a more contemplative and "panoramic" viewpoint from a YG, for instance.

...

cheers,
alex

Oh, thanks, Asiufy, that’s nice of you to say. It’s great to be able to share an experience like the Carmel’s gave me and have it received in the spirit it’s intended.

One other thing I forgot to say about the Carmel 2’s that I really, really liked was that they didn’t come across as difficult to drive in the sense that they were very dynamic even at modest levels. Hats off to whoever the guy was manning the room when I was in there, but in wonderful Dutch fashion kept the volume civil and didn’t try and crank it. During Joe’s “Take 5” solo it was really easy to tell how much pressure he was applying to the head of the kick drum, modulating the intensity as if he was “playing” the drum rather than just “hitting” it. You could still hear him feathering it during the early parts of the solo, and then when he really laid into the head, the expansion and contraction of natural room reverb that stretched across the soundstage without the decay being foreshortened nor exaggerated remained easily discernible. All of this despite the modest volume, although the fact that the hotel room dictated a near-field listening position probably helped. That takes nothing away from their performance though, and I think it’s a testament to their design that they achieved it with less-than ideal amplification.

And although I imagine you can feed them endless amounts of high-quality current and spend way more on amplification that the subtotal of the Carmel 2 itself with a commensurate lift in ultimate involvement (and if you could, why wouldn’t you?), it sounded like a design that doesn’t sacrifice micro-dynamic subtlety at the altar of greater power handling and scale. Again, really impressive.

I think you’ve articulated the difference in perspective dynamics vs horns gives you - the contemplation of good dynamics the envelopment of horns. One is looking “at”, the other looking “in”. I guess it could be said stats and planars are looking “through”, but by this stage the analogy is probably reaching the limits of its plasticity...!

Alex, 853 is the best writer on WBF bar none

Come on Spirit, you guys just aren’t trying hard enough.

 

[spiritofmusic]

853, it's true, just accept the plaudits and be very embarrassed
I thing we of the same mind love the perspective of seeing thru the "message" into the "meaning", that vinyl, tubes and horns specialise in
I'm signed up to the first two categories, just struggling to reconcile the third
Atm I have had visits to AG Duos over 18 months of ongoing experience at Blue58's, and these would be my choice if I had to settle on horns today
These or the Trios with my NATs or potentially Audiopax could well be my final destination
Btw NATs Audio is truly a giant in the tube amp world, just v well hidden from the audio community at large

 

[Aries Cerat]

Hello 835guy

I personally want to thank you for the kindest words regarding our demo room at the show.

It was a real pleasure to have your company for a good portion of the day.
Unfortunately my flight was one hour after the show end, so i had to run.


If you run by any chance near our part-of-the world, well, you do have our contact details


Stavros

 

[853guy]

Hello 835guy

I personally want to thank you for the kindest words regarding our demo room at the show.

It was a real pleasure to have your company for a good portion of the day.
Unfortunately my flight was one hour after the show end, so i had to run.


If you run by any chance near our part-of-the world, well, you do have our contact details


Stavros

Hey Stavros!

Gosh, I mean, I should be thanking you.

I hope my words have conveyed a little of how significant my experience was. My personal feelings are that I could have written an entire series of books and still not captured the essence of how emotionally, viscerally and intellectually moving the components that have emerged from your head, hands and heart are. I guess that’s why ultimately, words can only ever reveal the limitations of their meaning, and provide an invitation toward something more tangibly experiential. I hope to do that again in the not-too-distant future.

Oh, and don’t think I haven’t already been suggesting your country of domicile as a top contender for our next family holiday. I can assure you, I most surely have.

Thank you again for your extraordinary willingness to share your time with me so generously. Looking forward to seeing you again as time permits.

Best,

853guy

 

[asiufy]

Oh, thanks, Asiufy, that’s nice of you to say. It’s great to be able to share an experience like the Carmel’s gave me and have it received in the spirit it’s intended.

One other thing I forgot to say about the Carmel 2’s that I really, really liked was that they didn’t come across as difficult to drive in the sense that they were very dynamic even at modest levels. Hats off to whoever the guy was manning the room when I was in there, but in wonderful Dutch fashion kept the volume civil and didn’t try and crank it. During Joe’s “Take 5” solo it was really easy to tell how much pressure he was applying to the head of the kick drum, modulating the intensity as if he was “playing” the drum rather than just “hitting” it. You could still hear him feathering it during the early parts of the solo, and then when he really laid into the head, the expansion and contraction of natural room reverb that stretched across the soundstage without the decay being foreshortened nor exaggerated remained easily discernible. All of this despite the modest volume, although the fact that the hotel room dictated a near-field listening position probably helped. That takes nothing away from their performance though, and I think it’s a testament to their design that they achieved it with less-than ideal amplification.

And although I imagine you can feed them endless amounts of high-quality current and spend way more on amplification that the subtotal of the Carmel 2 itself with a commensurate lift in ultimate involvement (and if you could, why wouldn’t you?), it sounded like a design that doesn’t sacrifice micro-dynamic subtlety at the altar of greater power handling and scale. Again, really impressive.

853guy,

Yes, that subtlety in the micro dinamics that the YGs can have is a factor of its architecture, and the absence of any kind of "stuffing" (rock wool, etc) in the cabinets. The speakers are effectively not (mechanically) robbing anything from the music. It's not just the aluminum that makes the YGs special

I would not go as far as to say they're easy to drive, but the YGs will generally reward the listener when mated with amps that match their needs. I'm actually listening to our Carmel 2s right now paired with the relatively modest darTZeel LHC-208, in a small-ish room, and the music is very full and rich.


cheers,
alex

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, from what I understand they are not easy to drive

 

[853guy]

853guy,

Yes, that subtlety in the micro dinamics that the YGs can have is a factor of its architecture, and the absence of any kind of "stuffing" (rock wool, etc) in the cabinets. The speakers are effectively not (mechanically) robbing anything from the music. It's not just the aluminum that makes the YGs special

I would not go as far as to say they're easy to drive, but the YGs will generally reward the listener when mated with amps that match their needs. I'm actually listening to our Carmel 2s right now paired with the relatively modest darTZeel LHC-208, in a small-ish room, and the music is very full and rich.


cheers,
alex

Actually, from what I understand they are not easy to drive

Hi Asiufy, Hi Bonzo,

Like I say, English is my first language, but my brain often struggles to say what it means via the limits of written language (you guys can’t see all the manic hand waving and subtle eye movements I’m making). JA rated their electrical behaviour at 4 ohms, and noted they only dip below that between 150Hz and 400Hz (with a minimum value of 3.86) with a fairly benign phase/amplitude relationship. Y’know, not like, totally horrendous.

Of course, I’m evaluating them by ear, in a hotel room, in an unfamiliar system driven by a pseudo-Class D design under show conditions, hence my “didn’t come across as difficult to drive” heavily equivocal, evasively indeterminate choice of words (and related hand and eye signals). I didn’t say they were “easy” to drive, just that they didn’t sound difficult to drive in the way that Avalon’s or Sonus Faber’s or B&W 801’s or big Dynaudio’s do. Let’s just say all those speakers (to me) required a heap of current to keep their behaviour in check, and still needed to be played louder-ish for them to “come alive” - heck, one of the reasons I gave up on the Living Voice was they required way more power to hit their stride. (You know when you constantly have to ride the volume until it feels like all the drivers are working together rather than against one another...? Yeah, I hate that.)

The Carmel’s didn’t strike me as “robbing anything from the music” (nice, Asiufy), which was a surprise to me, and very, very different to what the Magico’s were doing. Of all of the above, I’d like to posit that in my limited experience with the Carmel’s, given the nature of shows, the state of my metabolism, and the inherent capacity of my psyche to delude itself, they’re the only ones as of this writing that could possibly make me consider dynamics again (and in all probability, its bigger siblings), all things being equal, which of course they never are (cue more manic waving and nodding and squinting).

 

[bonzo75]

Hi 853, great writing, just read stone of your previous posts on this thread. Where are you planning to hear the western electrics?

 

[bonzo75]

And yes, the YG are very different from the magico. The Hailey will give you much more of the Carmel, more full body, bass, decay, musicality. I have heard the Aries Diana on tune audio anima but want to listen to their more powerful amps at some stage

 

[853guy]

Hi 853, great writing, just read stone of your previous posts on this thread. Where are you planning to hear the western electrics?

Hi Bonzo,

Thanks, that’s kind of you to say.

The WE’s are replicas made by Tim Gurney down to the exact same levels of craftsmanship and materials (wood imported from the former production areas, cast-iron fixtures using the same types of sand for casting, etc), with genuine 555’s (or maybe the G.I.P.s, I’m not sure on that, though). I’ve been trying to carve out time in my schedule for over a year and it’s just not happened. Brussels was the first chance I’ve had to eek out some time to go hear stuff, but hopefully we can combine some family travel with some listening in the not-too-distant future.

His blog is here: https://13audio.com

And yes, the YG are very different from the magico. The Hailey will give you much more of the Carmel, more full body, bass, decay, musicality. I have heard the Aries Diana on tune audio anima but want to listen to their more powerful amps at some stage

Yeah, it’s crazy how blown away I was by the Carmel 2’s, and I’d very much like to hear the Hailey’s as time allows. If you do get a chance, please go hear the Kassandra/Impera II/Concero combo. I’ve reached the limit of my ability to describe how significantly they exceeded my expectations. If you’re still up for some leg-work, send Flyer a PM.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi yes, I have been to Tim's and Flyer's place before, and will be visiting flyer again.

There is a great WE room in Leipzig, he right now is getting sold set up right, I will tell you when I am going there and maybe you can join

 

[853guy]

Hi yes, I have been to Tim's and Flyer's place before, and will be visiting flyer again.

There is a great WE room in Leipzig, he right now is getting sold set up right, I will tell you when I am going there and maybe you can join

Hey Bonzo,

Yeah, thanks - I'd love to, that'd be great. I'll set up my PM's again.

Off topic a little: What was Tim running when you visited? Did he have 12a/13a's at that stage, or the 15a/16a?

 

[bonzo75]

15a with the EMT 927. I heard the 12 and 13 at Munich in 2014 and that was the best thing ever. Made the rest of the show boring. They had a different model in 2015 that was great, but this year disappointed. The Leipzig one is the best for home use imo. 16a. He now has woofers with it, GIP drivers (I have also heard it with line magnetic in another place, those drivers aren't anywhere as good), and he also has another set of WE speakers called London

 

[853guy]

15a with the EMT 927. I heard the 12 and 13 at Munich in 2014 and that was the best thing ever. Made the rest of the show boring. They had a different model in 2015 that was great, but this year disappointed. The Leipzig one is the best for home use imo. 16a. He now has woofers with it, GIP drivers (I have also heard it with line magnetic in another place, those drivers aren't anywhere as good), and he also has another set of WE speakers called London

Interesting.

Yep, the 12a/13a are definitely on my must-audition list, alongside Stavros' Symphonia and some other field-coil related boxes (Maxonic, Featstrex). Do let me know when you're planning on heading to Leipzig and to visit Flyer (I do, after all, owe him a meal).

Thanks, Bonzo.

853guy

 

[bonzo75]

The Leipzig guy has been with the 16a for many years, and then went to South Korea, checked out all of the WE museum, and selected the WE London speakers to add to his set up

 

[853guy]

The Leipzig guy has been with the 16a for many years, and then went to South Korea, checked out all of the WE museum, and selected the WE London speakers to add to his set up

Is this it (or similar)?

http://www.gip-laboratory.com/seihin30154hornsystemenglish.html

 

[bonzo75]

Possible. I haven't heard his London. I did hear his 16a, fantastic

 

[microstrip]

(...) And in my experience, it’s rare to experience a system that conveys meaning in a way that is experientially and intellectually rewarding AND sonically stimulating in equal measure. If push comes to shove, I’ll always choose the former over the latter. Well, the Aries Cerat//Magico/Entreq/SMT system, overseen by Michel (Audio Refinement), Stavros (Aries Cerat), Matts and Sven (Entreq/SMT), is, in my limited time on this Earth, probably one of the few that’s ever come closest to my ideal of meeting both criteria without significant detriment one to the other.

(...)

Every piece of music I played felt important. Urgent. Intentional. Artistically relevant. Consequential. Like it really mattered. Like the musicians who had crafted it were made of flesh and blood and sinew and bone and had connected them to the synapses in their brains through the mediation of their heart and soul. Music burned. It caught fire and took on its own form. It emerged as an entity as corporeal as a living being, and was shocking in its physicality. I uttered various obscenities under my breath as I reeled at its swagger, menace and intensity. I was held in its grip and caressed by its embrace. It swung like the best idler-drives and had continuousness like the best reel-to-reel decks. It delivered the envelope of each note’s individuality in its entirety and yet ever called attention to any single element. Its energy profile was perpetually unlimited, its transient behaviour ephemeral. It was redolent and earthy as the best Bordeaux’s, as refined and complex as a glass of Frey Ranch gin and as heart-stoppingly powerful as a Yamasaki 18 Year Old (that's a whiskey, in case you were wondering). And it was fed from the USB out of a tablet.

But the thing that impressed me the most? The silences. Not that they were black black or blacker black, or whatever the new way of describing black is, though the system’s noise floor seemed very low to me (I couldn’t hear anything from the tweeter when I bent down to take photos - the Entreqs, perhaps?). No. What was truly impressive was something I’ve had from vinyl before, but only rarely, and never from digital. Let me give an analogy here. As someone who’s played music since I was eight (choirs, orchestras, jazz band, brass bands, pop/rock/alt/electronica), one of the things I’ve experienced during performances is what happens when there’s no music to play. As a drummer, primarily, it’s often the case that the music will call for a bar, an intro, a verse, a chorus, a whole section or movement in which there’s nothing written or simply no requirement for me to be playing. In that space, there’s… waiting. But it’s not passive. It’s not a disengaged I’ll-check-my-phone kind of waiting. It’s active. It’s present. It’s a type of waiting in which the music is still coursing through my veins, resounding in my head and permeating my heart - I’m just not playing. The tension of the music - the way it’s held together by the intentionality of the other musicians present and the attention we give to one another and to the song itself - it’s all still there in the silences. We’re all still counting the beat, feeling the pulse, riding the dynamic of what’s come before, and anticipating what’s to come. Before the first note of a symphony is played, every musician, and especially, the conductor, is poised in anticipation. That moment of silence - that moment of tension - is as palpable as any sound that will be made once the hand cycles through the upbeat and gestures for the downbeat. (...)

Great pleasure reading such an elaborate and enlightening description and this thread. I have often referred this subject - the dynamics of silence in recording playback - but your contribution eclipses my words. I have referred it mainly in chamber music - my usual example is Shostakovitch piano trios, pieces of great tension, that would sound boring in most systems, as the tension is created also by the musicians, as the timing and intensity of their joins must be perfect, you need to feel their complicity looks through the recording.

Particular equipment can contribute to this feeling in systems - IMHO the Forsell turntable does it excellently. The Metronomes's also helped a lot in this sense. But it is a collective effort - anything can spoil it!

Looking at the pictures of the Aries Cerat//Magico/Entreq/SMT system I can not avoid an hypothetical question concerning the darkest side of audio: how would this system sound without the Entreq's?

Thanks!

 

[bonzo75]

Are you guys referring to time intervals?

 

[flyer]

hello bonzo and 853guy,

I have some catching up to do on this thread

of course you are both very welcome at my place. Though, the Kassandra i had at the show is leaving my room again and going back to the french distributor who kindly leant me his unit.
I ordered a new Kassandra Signature at Aries Cerat but there is an 8-week delivery time. And to 'worsen' things, I am in the process of selling my Rockport Avior speakers and looking at the response I have they should be leaving soon. To be clear, the Aviors are nice speakers and mate very well with the Aries Cerat amplification but I sell them because I have no commercial interest in having (and thus promoting) them. Reason why I was demoing at the show with Magico S1 (as the New Music dealer does distribute Magico).
In other words, I am converting into a total Aries Cerat system after having evaluated many avenues in the past. Next speakers are undecided but I already got some very interesting leads and I intend to take my time to ensure there is a good fit, sonically and commercially. I hope and expect to put this project to rest by the time I am getting my new DAC

Cheers!