New VPI Table

[Suteetat]

Thanks for the report, Suteetat. Did you ever try the VPI 3D arm on the TW table or the Reed arm on the VPI DD table to isolate what the table itself is doing?

Also, how would you describe the difference between the Atlas and the Supreme? Given the many possible combinations with two arms, two tables and two cartridges, do you have one favorite combination? Thanks.

Peter, I have not tried any other combination yet. Right now VPI is on Symposium Ultra using bear paw cone (the original VPI footers are too wide for my shelf as it would require 23 inch width platform). With Bear Paw, it barely fit on Symposium 21 inch platform. I am waiting for Critical Mass shelf which is still about 2 months away. At that time, I think I should have enough space to put Reed 3Q arm on Reed pod next to VPI. Before my TW arrived, I did try Reed with VPI Classic and I prefer Reed over JMW 10.5 arm quite a bit.
With Reed 3Q, Air Tight is a tad leaner than Atlas, a bit more delicate through the midrange with a touch of sweetness in the midrange. Atlas is more robust, a bit warmer, bigger bolder. In the past, I prefer both Atlas and AirTight on Reed, more so than FR66s (best with Koetsu and Ikeda Kai), Graham (sold it, don't like it personally after extended listening, another friend swear by Graham over Reed also on TW table though, go figure). It will be interesting to compare Reed and 3D arm on the same table. No surprise, I think 3D is going to be quite a bit more neutral than Reed's wood armwand and the bottom end should be better but Reed is just so pleasing through the midrange and the bass is certainly more than acceptable.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I have not tried any other combination yet. Right now VPI is on Symposium Ultra using bear paw cone (the original VPI footers are too wide for my shelf as it would require 23 inch width platform). With Bear Paw, it barely fit on Symposium 21 inch platform. I am waiting for Critical Mass shelf which is still about 2 months away. At that time, I think I should have enough space to put Reed 3Q arm on Reed pod next to VPI. Before my TW arrived, I did try Reed with VPI Classic and I prefer Reed over JMW 10.5 arm quite a bit.
With Reed 3Q, Air Tight is a tad leaner than Atlas, a bit more delicate through the midrange with a touch of sweetness in the midrange. Atlas is more robust, a bit warmer, bigger bolder. In the past, I prefer both Atlas and AirTight on Reed, more so than FR66s (best with Koetsu and Ikeda Kai), Graham (sold it, don't like it personally after extended listening, another friend swear by Graham over Reed also on TW table though, go figure). It will be interesting to compare Reed and 3D arm on the same table. No surprise, I think 3D is going to be quite a bit more neutral than Reed's wood armwand and the bottom end should be better but Reed is just so pleasing through the midrange and the bass is certainly more than acceptable.

Thanks Suteetat. I've admired your system ever since you had the Magico Q3, one of my favorite speakers. I'm curious about your description of the Supreme being "a tad leaner than the Atlas, a bit more delicate through the midrange with a touch of sweetness in the midrange. Atlas is more robust, a bit warmer, bigger bolder." I've never heard the Atlas, but from what others have told me, I had always thought the Supreme was warmer, with a denser tonal palate, and richer overall sound, while the Atlas was a tad more neutral, more detailed, faster and more dynamic. The Supreme being about tonal beauty and the Atlas being about truth. But these comments, for the most part, are based on the two cartridges being in the SME V and V-12 arms. It just goes to show how much an arm can influence the sound of a cartridge. That's very interesting. Thank you.

Sorry to vier this post off topic. So are you planning to get the VPI DD?

 

[Suteetat]

Peter, I think Air Tight is very much dependent on the arm that you use. On Graham, Reed, JMW 10.5 and 3D arm, it sounds very different. There was a thread on agon a long time ago regarding Air Tight vs My Sonic. One person thought that one is more neutral, the other more romantic. Then someone else came and said the exact opposite. Air Tight will never be in the tonal beauty camp like Koetsu but I think delicate, excellent tonal pallete but never exaggerated would be a better description (delicate but not soft either).
Back to VPI DD, yeah, I am not returning this table


PS it was kind of strange. The file that Fremer posted on his website, I thought 3D was a bit more subdue, not as explosive or dynamic, somewhat polite, may be a tad too civilized but in my system, the sound was explosive, well extended, very natural sounding nothing like I heard on the file at all.

 

[Sunnyboy1956]

Suteetat
Congrats on the VPI DD. It seems that you prefer it to the TW with the same arm/cart combo. Now that is praise indeed. Would love to hear a modern day DD. Loved my Sony DD , I think it was a PS 515 or something similar about 30 years ago with explosive bass in an all Sony system.
NJoy
Pradeep

 

[Suteetat]

Hi Pradeep, I think VPI DD/3D arm is a much more neutral combination than TW/Reed. TW/Graham is a little bit more similar to VPI combo but I never could dial in Air Tight with Graham/TW as much as I like and after many months, I ended up selling my Graham arm. I am waiting for my bigger shelf to arrive then I can mount Reed in its own arm pod and try it with VPI DD. It will be interesting as Reed worked extremely well with my old VPI Classic table as well. Richer sounding than JMW 10.5 with may be slightly less slam and dynamic but not by much. However, VPI DD has TW/Reed and TW/FR66s in term of bass, clarity, speed and detail. However this is only with Air Tight, I have not had a chance to try other cartridges yet. I do want to hear how Atlas will work with VPI. Koetsu/FR66s/TW is very addictive in its own way though and the way TW/Reed handle vocal music is hard to let go as well. However, if I can only have one table/arm, I think VPI DD would be the best all around table, I suppose. Luckily I don't have to choose!

 

[hvbias]

Peter, I think Air Tight is very much dependent on the arm that you use. On Graham, Reed, JMW 10.5 and 3D arm, it sounds very different. There was a thread on agon a long time ago regarding Air Tight vs My Sonic. One person thought that one is more neutral, the other more romantic. Then someone else came and said the exact opposite. Air Tight will never be in the tonal beauty camp like Koetsu but I think delicate, excellent tonal pallete but never exaggerated would be a better description (delicate but not soft either).
Back to VPI DD, yeah, I am not returning this table


PS it was kind of strange. The file that Fremer posted on his website, I thought 3D was a bit more subdue, not as explosive or dynamic, somewhat polite, may be a tad too civilized but in my system, the sound was explosive, well extended, very natural sounding nothing like I heard on the file at all.

Congrats, I was able to hear the VPI Classic Direct at VPI's headquarters, even with their Shure MM the system was outstanding. The biggest strength is it's rock solid image density and palpability, truly like 15 ips open reel. I'm convinced about high end direct drive now.

A nice operation all around with friendly people.

 

[zermatt]

Suteetat. Are you still using the Minus K under your TW?

I heard the VPI DD TT this weekend with the 3D tonearm and a Atlas cartridge. It was a MBL system with MBL amps and a custom tube amps. It sounded good but not as good as other tables I have heard. I think the 30K price is a bit much.

 

[Suteetat]

Suteetat. Are you still using the Minus K under your TW?

I heard the VPI DD TT this weekend with the 3D tonearm and a Atlas cartridge. It was a MBL system with MBL amps and a custom tube amps. It sounded good but not as good as other tables I have heard. I think the 30K price is a bit much.

Yes, I still have minus k under my TW. I am in the process of changing my rack over to Critical Mass and will try VPI on Critical Mass with and without Minus K eventually. I have not heard all that many tables in my system, just the VPI Classic 3, TW Raven AC with upgrade Black Night platter, motor, Micro Seiki SX-777 Air and I am very happy wiht it. I heard other similarly price turntable or more expensive one but not in the same system so I cannot say for sure. Right now VPI is sitting on Symposium Ultra using bear paws footers. Symposium is barely wide enough with just a couple of millimeters between the edge and the pointed feet. Probably not an ideal situation but Critical Mass will be quite a bit bigger.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Suteetat. Are you still using the Minus K under your TW?

I heard the VPI DD TT this weekend with the 3D tonearm and a Atlas cartridge. It was a MBL system with MBL amps and a custom tube amps. It sounded good but not as good as other tables I have heard. I think the 30K price is a bit much.

Think you need to heat it elsewhere. Or something wasn't up to snuff or set up properly. As far as price, it's by far the lowest margin VPI product.

 

[zermatt]

Suteetat;

I never had used a minus K in my system but I know lots people like them including a friend of mine. I looked into the design and the isolation graph and the design is a bit noisy around 60 -75 hz. I have heard thru the TW circles that the MINIS K can add a hard sound to the overall mix. IF I owned one, I would swap out the metal plate, and use a cork/walnut plate that about 25mm thick. Also, if fill tin cans with sun thickened linseed oil and had the TW resting on these that would also help.

Myles: I heard many a systems and this gent has the DSC Vivaldi full stack. The DCS was more musical and engaging. I have another friend who has the Cali-burn TT and the DCS Vavaldi, and his analog smokes the DCS system. It's not funny there is that big of difference, analog rules! I understand about the cost of the motor on the VPI, but at 30K, I fail to see the long term value of the product.

 

[Suteetat]

Suteetat;

I never had used a minus K in my system but I know lots people like them including a friend of mine. I looked into the design and the isolation graph and the design is a bit noisy around 60 -75 hz. I have heard thru the TW circles that the MINIS K can add a hard sound to the overall mix. IF I owned one, I would swap out the metal plate, and use a cork/walnut plate that about 25mm thick. Also, if fill tin cans with sun thickened linseed oil and had the TW resting on these that would also help.

Myles: I heard many a systems and this gent has the DSC Vivaldi full stack. The DCS was more musical and engaging. I have another friend who has the Cali-burn TT and the DCS Vavaldi, and his analog smokes the DCS system. It's not funny there is that big of difference, analog rules! I understand about the cost of the motor on the VPI, but at 30K, I fail to see the long term value of the product.

zermatt, I have a platform on top of the Minus-K. This way, I can move the whole platform to acheive the centering of the mass on Minus-K easily. trying to balance
TW with its external motor directly on Minus-K otherwise would be very difficult. Right now I just have a locally made corian/multiple damping layers platform. I am waiting for Critical Mass shelf to arrive and I will try that on top of Minus-K as well.

Personally, I did not notice any hard sound when I added Minus-K. With Reed arm, the sound remains full, rich, nice decay but with much much blacker background, more inner detail and better separation of instruments in general. I don't think I noticed any negative impact at all.

 

[zermatt]

Suteetat; Thanks for sharing your feedback. It always interesting listening thru these products , it all becomes so enticing.

 

[MRJAZZ]

Suteetat. Are you still using the Minus K under your TW?

I heard the VPI DD TT this weekend with the 3D tonearm and a Atlas cartridge. It was a MBL system with MBL amps and a custom tube amps. It sounded good but not as good as other tables I have heard. I think the 30K price is a bit much.

ZERMATT, do you mind sharing the context under which you made the above observation ("IT sounded good (the VPI DD), but not as good as other tables I have heard").....Was this in your own system, and if not how familiar were you with the system that you did hear it in?.... Just curious how you know what the VPI DD was doing , (or not doing ), that caused your look warm evaluation of it. Reason I ask is we just installed a PBN AUDIO GROOVE MASTER DD, in our studio and it is easily the best analogue front end we have ever heard. THE PBN unit uses the same motor, drive system and controller as the VPI DD , but in a custom EBONY PLINTH with STILLPOINT ULTRA 5'S . Don't know how much the plinth and the STILLPOINTS brought to the over all sound, however we also had the pleasure of using the VPI DD, in our demo room at 2014 CES, and it worked exceedingly well (so much so, that AVSHOWROOMS gave us a GOLD award for one of the best rooms at CES/THE SHOW )

Cheers.................T.

 

[VT Skier]

zermatt, I have a platform on top of the Minus-K. This way, I can move the whole platform to acheive the centering of the mass on Minus-K easily. trying to balance
TW with its external motor directly on Minus-K otherwise would be very difficult. Right now I just have a locally made corian/multiple damping layers platform. I am waiting for Critical Mass shelf to arrive and I will try that on top of Minus-K as well.

Personally, I did not notice any hard sound when I added Minus-K. With Reed arm, the sound remains full, rich, nice decay but with much much blacker background, more inner detail and better separation of instruments in general. I don't think I noticed any negative impact at all.

I also have a Minus K under a CA Innovation. I agree that it noticeably improved the sound, with no downside. At least to my ears.

 

[zermatt]

Mr. Jazz; your comment: "sharing the context under which you made the above observation". I not sure is this what your looking for but here it is:

My friend has MBL 101E mk ii and the 9008 amps. His preamp is the 6010d. I am not sure on which CJ phono preamp he has but it has tubes. His old turntable was a basis debut and he had a older graham tonearm. Cabling was shunyata for pwr and transparent top of line for spk and interconnects. He has a custom 200W tube amp that his friend made for him. His room ix 24' x 30' with 10 ft ceilings.

We listen to a large variety of music and it sounded good.

Now my comment about it's overall performance is based on the degree of improvement when switching to analog vs. digital. In other high rez system, I have heard major improvements when switching to analog. I did not hear that difference with this system when compared to my other friend's system. In the MBL system, the DCS Vivaldi was better then the VPI DD TT.

 

[PeterA]

Mr. Jazz; your comment: "sharing the context under which you made the above observation". I not sure is this what your looking for but here it is:

My friend has MBL 101E mk ii and the 9008 amps. His preamp is the 6010d. I am not sure on which CJ phono preamp he has but it has tubes. His old turntable was a basis debut and he had a older graham tonearm. Cabling was shunyata for pwr and transparent top of line for spk and interconnects. He has a custom 200W tube amp that his friend made for him. His room ix 24' x 30' with 10 ft ceilings.

We listen to a large variety of music and it sounded good.

Now my comment about it's overall performance is based on the degree of improvement when switching to analog vs. digital. In other high rez system, I have heard major improvements when switching to analog. I did not hear that difference with this system when compared to my other friend's system. In the MBL system, the DCS Vivaldi was better then the VPI DD TT.

It is interesting that you preferred the Vivaldi stack to the VPI DD TT. I have found it very difficult to properly assess the relative quality of cartridges, tonearms and turntables because it is not easy to do direct comparisons in the same system and to isolate the one component under consideration. It is next to impossible at shows and at dealerships, for me anyway.

I have been able to do this properly only once in my own system comparing two tables using the same cartridge/arm/cable over a period of two weeks. The following two weeks I compared different arms on the same table/cartridge/cable, and the final two weeks I compared different cartridges on the same table/arm/cable. By the end of the six weeks, I was pretty confident I understood the various differences between the components and kept the combination that I thought sounded best.

Absent this kind of a direct comparison, it must take much more experience than I have to know what a particular analog component is contributing to the sound. With the VPI, I guess I would focus on the timing of the music and the pitch of the notes. Does it sound natural? The problem is that how well the table is isolated and how well vibrational energy is drained are key factors in the sound of any turntable.

 

[MRJAZZ]

Mr. Jazz; your comment: "sharing the context under which you made the above observation". I not sure is this what your looking for but here it is:

My friend has MBL 101E mk ii and the 9008 amps. His preamp is the 6010d. I am not sure on which CJ phono preamp he has but it has tubes. His old turntable was a basis debut and he had a older graham tonearm. Cabling was shunyata for pwr and transparent top of line for spk and interconnects. He has a custom 200W tube amp that his friend made for him. His room ix 24' x 30' with 10 ft ceilings.

We listen to a large variety of music and it sounded good.

Now my comment about it's overall performance is based on the degree of improvement when switching to analog vs. digital. In other high rez system, I have heard major improvements when switching to analog. I did not hear that difference with this system when compared to my other friend's system. In the MBL system, the DCS Vivaldi was better then the VPI DD TT.

Thanks ZERMATT for taking the time to reply. I do however find your methodology a little flawed in that your observation that "SYSTEM A" (the one with the VPI DD ) failed to sound as good as the digital in that system, but in another totally different system (SYSTEM B with the CALIBURN for analogue replay) the findings were reversed (analogue trumped the digital). Now had you taken the VPI DD over to the person who has SYSTEM B (the CALIBURN table) and did a direct comparison and came away with the same results (feeling), that digital was superior when the VPI was used for comparison, and was inferior when the CALIBURN was used, than we would be on to something.........that something would be the CALIBURN table at five times the cost of the VPI DD was superior.
Anyway thanks for your time in posting your observations.
Cheers..........T.

 

[zermatt]

Mr. JAZZ;
You are correct my observations are not completely true to an objective scientific methodology. The only way to really judge the performance is to measure the motor performance and isolation and then have other TT in the listening room to compare.
On the other hand, I do not believe that using the retail cost is a reliable indicator for better performance or long term value.

BTW: My friend will be bring his VPI over to the individual with the CALIBURN this weekend. I will be there. IF its OK with them, I will report back on our findings.

Peter A: your comment: 'it must take much more experience than I have to know what a particular analog component is contributing to the sound'. I like to believe that I am just having fun when listening to my system or my friends; and, given that view point I look for the following features in new products.

A: What is the resolution (detail level) vs. the level of musicality in the overall performance.
B: When using my favorite LP's and CD's, I ask myself do I want to hear more or is the same old song.

We often use Shelby Lynee on LP and CD as a consistent source. There are others like Patrica Kass Live but this is not on LP.

 

[BruceD]

Suteetat;

I never had used a minus K in my system but I know lots people like them including a friend of mine. I looked into the design and the isolation graph and the design is a bit noisy around 60 -75 hz. I have heard thru the TW circles that the MINIS K can add a hard sound to the overall mix. IF I owned one, I would swap out the metal plate, and use a cork/walnut plate that about 25mm thick. Also, if fill tin cans with sun thickened linseed oil and had the TW resting on these that would also help.

I use the Minus K Under my TT--noisy?-not in my observations--re the hard sound with the TW, I conducted numerous listening tests with various items between the TT and the K and found

Air Dried Maple block sonically superior over Granite, Silestone, and the K top plate itself--it may be difficult to swap out the existing K plate ( wood alternative/etc)due to the mechanism attachments/etc

My tests were with both an Idler Drive and also a non suspended base belt drive.

Simon Yorke prefers the Minus K over the Vibraplane-plus I have had discussion with another TT/Minus K owner that preferred the K over the Vibraplane due to the ringing experienced from the V.

I have not tried the Vibraplane myself so cannot confirm the latter findings.

Like any thing in this business home demo of any item considered a necessity

BruceD

 

[zermatt]

BruceD: Thanks for the feedback. If you do not mine sharing, what TT are you using?