PayPal Refund? No Refund of Processing Fees! How do YOU like to pay?

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Customer has no rights w/ f&f payment, it's like giving someone cash so they can't file a case with paypal and say the item is missing, damaged or not-as-described... but if they use a credit card that's charged back I assume seller would lose that money with no recourse, is that what you're saying?
F and F is just that for friends and family. It offers no protection for the seller at all. They don't tell you if the client is verified BECAUSE its a friend or family.
One has to be careful and know the rules for PayPal and Ebay etc. since they are very specific and you can get burned bad if you are ignorant of them.
 
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ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
5,075
1,917
720
Utah
I use Square for anything over $1000. It's really simple to send the client an online invoice and they pay it directly through Square and the vendor doesn't have to deal with keeping card information, they have shopping basket too. Personally given how intrusive and influential google and amazon are the last thing I want is to help them with taking over our financial transactions too.

david
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
3,662
651
485
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
Yeah it's really trivial to sign up for a payment processing service these days, like Square, etc. They'll even send you a swiper, in case you need to take payments "live".
Square is a great alternative, btw, and so is Zelle, but that is a little more P2P.
 
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thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
1,510
179
485
Alto, NM
I would never use PayPal if I were the seller. You are way too exposed to the whims (bias) of the buyer even if the product received was "as advertised"with no issues.

The Gon used to allow sellers to receive a cashiers check prior to shipping. Not anymore.
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
5,287
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325
Eastern WA
I would never use PayPal if I were the seller. You are way too exposed to the whims (bias) of the buyer even if the product received was "as advertised"with no issues.

The Gon used to allow sellers to receive a cashiers check prior to shipping. Not anymore.

I think it's related to eBay, as the buyer is always right there basically.
 
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thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
1,510
179
485
Alto, NM

ketcham

Industry Expert
Feb 29, 2016
130
57
115
Dave C - Appreciate the costco link. I too was looking at this.

Regarding demo gear, I have been lucky so far in this industry. I have not asked for a deposit and have not taken a loss, yet. I would think I am at greater risk for delivery package theft on receiving end than someone asking for demo gear and disappearing. Anyone else here have either issue?
 

Pallen

Member
Jun 26, 2018
28
22
8
I’ve never had a problem.

In the last 7 years or so, I had never had a problem either .... but now I have one. I sold my turntable last month to a buyer in a private sale, who paid me via Paypal. For the last 3+ weeks Paypal has frozen my account and demanded all sorts of 'proof' including photo ID, proof of home address, tracking number, proof of delivery etc. Even though the buyer emailed Paypal to verify the transaction details and say that he had received the item and was happy, they have contined to conduct 'investigation' and delay the transfer to my bank account. This is despite numerous calls to their customer service team, outsourced to the Philipines or somewhere like that. I'm now beginning to worry whether I will get my money at all. NEVER again will I use Paypal for anything. BEWARE guys! There's something omnious going on here.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,314
1,283
390
Dave C - Appreciate the costco link. I too was looking at this.

Regarding demo gear, I have been lucky so far in this industry. I have not asked for a deposit and have not taken a loss, yet. I would think I am at greater risk for delivery package theft on receiving end than someone asking for demo gear and disappearing. Anyone else here have either issue?

Agreed, I don't think I really need a deposit and I don't bother for forum members. For demos I only charge for shipping, I could take a cc #, charge it for shipping and keep it for the deposit without charging it.

@Pallen, yikes! I've never had an issue with paypal in the 15 years or so I've used them, and in the past I've retailed items via ebay so I have thousands of transactions. However, your horror story is not the first I've heard... if you're not an established paypal member the policies can be difficult at restrictive at first. You must have tripped some red flag I guess, probably caused by your buyer. Good luck!
 

Elberoth

Member Sponsor
Dec 16, 2012
1,999
211
320
Poland
In the last 7 years or so, I had never had a problem either .... but now I have one. I sold my turntable last month to a buyer in a private sale, who paid me via Paypal. For the last 3+ weeks Paypal has frozen my account and demanded all sorts of 'proof' including photo ID, proof of home address, tracking number, proof of delivery etc. Even though the buyer emailed Paypal to verify the transaction details and say that he had received the item and was happy, they have contined to conduct 'investigation' and delay the transfer to my bank account. This is despite numerous calls to their customer service team, outsourced to the Philipines or somewhere like that. I'm now beginning to worry whether I will get my money at all. NEVER again will I use Paypal for anything. BEWARE guys! There's something omnious going on here.

I had once similar case after I received over $35k for a DAC via PayPal.

Worse still - the buyer went on holidays or sth and was unreachable for PayPal, to confirm he had received the goods (even though tracking said he did).

It took me 6 weeks to get the money from my PP account, and basicly a 10+ hours wasted on writing emails, providing proofs and calling their info line.

My PayPal account was 15 years old and I my reputation as a seller was stellar (no buyer complains or siilar).
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
69
2
88
Massachusetts/Toronto
I had once similar case after I received over $35k for a DAC via PayPal.

Worse still - the buyer went on holidays or sth and was unreachable for PayPal, to confirm he had received the goods (even though tracking said he did).

It took me 6 weeks to get the money from my PP account, and basicly a 10+ hours wasted on writing emails, providing proofs and calling their info line.

My PayPal account was 15 years old and I my reputation as a seller was stellar (no buyer complains or siilar).
I had a similar incident recently on a small 5 figure sale. No fun for honest buyer or honest seller.
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
69
2
88
Massachusetts/Toronto
In the last 7 years or so, I had never had a problem either .... but now I have one. I sold my turntable last month to a buyer in a private sale, who paid me via Paypal. For the last 3+ weeks Paypal has frozen my account and demanded all sorts of 'proof' including photo ID, proof of home address, tracking number, proof of delivery etc. Even though the buyer emailed Paypal to verify the transaction details and say that he had received the item and was happy, they have contined to conduct 'investigation' and delay the transfer to my bank account. This is despite numerous calls to their customer service team, outsourced to the Philipines or somewhere like that. I'm now beginning to worry whether I will get my money at all. NEVER again will I use Paypal for anything. BEWARE guys! There's something omnious going on here.
I had a similar experience recently with an honest buyer. What is ironic is they base their anti-fraud system on one my team built for them (and a zillion banks all over the world) when I was a Director at a big data AI software firm before I retired.

I didn't need to show my passport to vote.
 

ketcham

Industry Expert
Feb 29, 2016
130
57
115
On the opposite side of this discussion, I have had a client purchase an expensive item using his credit card (Citi Bank), and I use Stripe for the business end of the credit card transaction. His wife did not recognize the transaction and marked it fraudulent. He wrote and submitted a Citi Bank disclaimer stating the charge was indeed valid. The account is in his name. I also submitted this form, along with proof of receipt of the phonostage amplifier, and customer satisfaction with the product.

Stripe fined me 10%, I was required to wire the funds to Citi Bank for additional charges. Stripe now holds 25% of my sales in a 6-month non-interest escrow account to offset such 'friendly fraud' chargebacks. This also is negative on my business credit - regardless of resolution, the incident is a fault of the business. I also can not switch from Stripe to another carrier for at least 6 months due to this assessment.

Citi Bank did not honor the payment. Per the terms of credit card services, I can not demand an alternative payment although I did request it. He legally can keep my product without payment and I have no legal recourse. This customer resides in the US and chose not to honor alternative payment.

This event has caused us as a business to reassess purchasing terms and it also certainly affects our ability to provide the best pricing for other customers.
 
Last edited:

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,314
1,283
390
On the opposite side of this discussion, I have had a client purchase an expensive item using his credit card (Citi Bank), and I use Stripe for the business end of the credit card transaction. His wife did not recognize the transaction and marked it fraudulent. He wrote and submitted a Citi Bank disclaimer stating the charge was indeed valid. The account is in his name. I also submitted this form, along with proof of receipt of the phonostage amplifier, and customer satisfaction with the product.

Stripe fined me 10%, I was required to wire the funds to Citi Bank for additional charges. Stripe now holds 25% of my sales in a 6-month non-interest escrow account to offset such 'friendly fraud' chargebacks. This also is negative on my business credit - regardless of resolution, the incident is a fault of the business. I also can not switch from Stripe to another carrier for at least 6 months due to this assessment.

Citi Bank did not honor the payment. Per the terms of credit card services, I can not demand an alternative payment although I did request it. He legally can keep my product without payment and I have no legal recourse. This customer resides in the US and chose not to honor alternative payment.

This event has caused us as a business to reassess purchasing terms and it also certainly affects our ability to provide the best pricing for other customers.

Sorry to hear.

I had my 1st ever fraudulent chargeback a little over a year ago. Paypal fought it for me and I provided evidence. Reason given for the claim was the customer was charged for a canceled subscription service, which I am clearly not. My terms of sale are on my website. The case was still decided in favor of the person committing blatant fraud.

I've looked into it and you do have recourse, a chargeback is similar to a canceled check. Paypal advised me to sue for the funds, I may but it's really only worth it on principle as I can just file it as a business loss so it's deductible, at least that covers some of my costs.

I don't know of any business that doesn't suffer significant losses from chargeback fraud or fraudulent paypal claims. We need better regulation to prevent this criminal activity. I think a lot of people make a living doing this, and others do it because they feel offended in some way, and thinks that justifies committing a crime in response.

It does look like Paypal backed off from the policy change that was the subject of this thread though, seems like they still give a generous 180 days to issue a refund. I know paypal can be difficult to deal with but I've been happy with them. I don't know of any service that people don't have horror stories about either.
 

gadawg58

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2018
44
20
75
In the last 7 years or so, I had never had a problem either .... but now I have one. I sold my turntable last month to a buyer in a private sale, who paid me via Paypal. For the last 3+ weeks Paypal has frozen my account and demanded all sorts of 'proof' including photo ID, proof of home address, tracking number, proof of delivery etc. Even though the buyer emailed Paypal to verify the transaction details and say that he had received the item and was happy, they have contined to conduct 'investigation' and delay the transfer to my bank account. This is despite numerous calls to their customer service team, outsourced to the Philipines or somewhere like that. I'm now beginning to worry whether I will get my money at all. NEVER again will I use Paypal for anything. BEWARE guys! There's something omnious going on here.
I had a similar experience with PayPal. Got a square account. Done with PayPal.

George
 
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Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
5,287
982
325
Eastern WA
On the opposite side of this discussion, I have had a client purchase an expensive item using his credit card (Citi Bank), and I use Stripe for the business end of the credit card transaction. His wife did not recognize the transaction and marked it fraudulent. He wrote and submitted a Citi Bank disclaimer stating the charge was indeed valid. The account is in his name. I also submitted this form, along with proof of receipt of the phonostage amplifier, and customer satisfaction with the product.

Stripe fined me 10%, I was required to wire the funds to Citi Bank for additional charges. Stripe now holds 25% of my sales in a 6-month non-interest escrow account to offset such 'friendly fraud' chargebacks. This also is negative on my business credit - regardless of resolution, the incident is a fault of the business. I also can not switch from Stripe to another carrier for at least 6 months due to this assessment.

Citi Bank did not honor the payment. Per the terms of credit card services, I can not demand an alternative payment although I did request it. He legally can keep my product without payment and I have no legal recourse. This customer resides in the US and chose not to honor alternative payment.

This event has caused us as a business to reassess purchasing terms and it also certainly affects our ability to provide the best pricing for other customers.


So what are you doing now? These horror stories scare the crap out of me.
 

gadawg58

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2018
44
20
75
With all of the issues with payment ... I may be more likely to work with a dealer on trade-ins or consignment of my old equipment as opposed to taking the risk selling myself. I'm not liking the developing trends in the payment industry. Luckily I'm not likely to be trading anything anytime soon so I'll just watch and see what happens for now. Hopefully there will be some better options soon.

George
 

Mikem53

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2020
253
105
45
I Dislike PayPal immensely. It gets worse and more expensive all the time. Built around the premise that everyone is a crook or a cheat, thanks to eBay..
I sold my Bel canto dac on USAM recently. The buyer went by my feedback and used Zelle to pay. No fees, instant payment and soon after, a happy buyer.. How refreshing! Normally I keep things because I hate the whole listing, selling and shipping thing.. The older I get the less patience I have for it.. My son is going to inherit all kinds of things..
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,314
1,283
390
With all of the issues with payment ... I may be more likely to work with a dealer on trade-ins or consignment of my old equipment as opposed to taking the risk selling myself. I'm not liking the developing trends in the payment industry. Luckily I'm not likely to be trading anything anytime soon so I'll just watch and see what happens for now. Hopefully there will be some better options soon.

George


Issues with transactions are much less than 0.1% IME, it's very rare but if you sell things for a living for years on end an issue or two are bound to come up.
 

ketcham

Industry Expert
Feb 29, 2016
130
57
115
0.1% - I am not so lucky. Both Allnic and Waversa use the best parts in the industry, most in-house. But that quality comes at a significant manufacturing cost. In this example, I was lucky and only lost a few thousand. Imagine if the product was $15K or $19K wholesale. After much discussion with my colleagues and those in the industry I have some affiliation with, I will allow credit card charges for purchases made from my online site only and encourage alternative payment on items discounted that is favorable to both the customer and the business. Many who I asked no longer take any form of Credit Card or PayPal. The risk is just too great on a low margin sale.

I plan to drop Stripe who does nothing to fight for the business and explicitly states the consumer bank makes the decision and there is no recourse. I do appreciate the Costco recommendation and only heard good things from other businesses.

Cottage industry high-end audio is really a service industry than retail. A positive story where everyone wins: I took a used Allnic Phono Preamp on trade. It tested fully to spec but did not output sound on arrival, damaged in shipping. The best solution was to ship overnight a new unit, pay for the return of the old unit which now is in for repair. My customer is very happy and I was very happy he was understanding. From this event, we both know we have each other's back.

And to state the obvious - I know Dave will move the earth for his customers. His cables certainly command my respect!
 

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