Peter A.’s System: A Perspective on Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

Yes!

Vitavox S2 roll off at 14k so that's why you might have heard the attenuation. I also would have preferred slightly higher treble In the two way Altec speaker that I loved.

 

[morricab]

Vitavox S2 roll off at 14k so that's why you might have heard the attenuation. I also would have preferred slightly higher treble In the two way Altec speaker that I loved.

Are they flat to 14 and then roll off or are they already heading down?

 

[Ron Resnick]

In the past 12 months or so I really came to appreciate bass quality as being the absolutely essential key of my system. Always happy to trade some extension if it keeps the quality.
Imho the biggest difference between live sounding acoustic classics music and most hifi systems is in the lower octaves. In a lot of hifi the music is lost in these regions.
I heard exceptional sounding natural bass on David’s Bionor vids actually - just breathed with speed and so much tone.

Best.

I find this to be very correct. With complex, multi-driver speakers (e.g., Wilson XVX, YG XV Jr., Gryphon Kodo, Rockport, Evolution Acoustics, Von Schweikert) I like the low frequency extension and bass response of these speakers, and I do not hear anything amiss.

But when I listen to vintage 15 inch thin paper drivers (e.g., PBN M2!5 Jeff Tyo Special Edition) and Tannoy Westminster Royal Gold there is a holistic-ness, an organic-ness and a naturalness to the low frequency response (if not the last word in low frequency extension) that I notice and just hear as "ahhhh, that is right!"

 

[DaveC]

Vlad, what is perplexing? Tasos stated he only asked Al the question and Al answered it. He did not ask me to respond because my opinion is invalid because it is not independent and he did not ask anyone else to answer the question. Yet you refer to “they”.

Ian has also heard the system. I asked him specifically when he was hear if he thought the high frequencies rolled off and he said no.

I also asked two musicians who heard my system and they told me the sound, specifically the high frequencies, are much more realistic and natural sounding than my former system which they also heard.

Take that as you may. If you want a breakdown of all the audiophile sonic attributes of my system, you will have to ask someone who thinks in those terms and who has heard the system.

Absent that, there are the system videos to assess. I have to say there’s an awful lot of curiosity about the system. Is it because not many people have heard actual corner horn speakers? I mean this is not something that you can just drive to Goodwins high end to hear.

Most conventional cone n dome speakers have a tiny dome covering from ~3 kHz on up, this is an issue IMO.

Also, high frequency perception is very personal. Many people no longer hear high enough for full extension to matter.

 

[morricab]

Vlad, what is perplexing? Tasos stated he only asked Al the question and Al answered it. He did not ask me to respond because my opinion is invalid because it is not independent and he did not ask anyone else to answer the question. Yet you refer to “they”.

Ian has also heard the system. I asked him specifically when he was hear if he thought the high frequencies rolled off and he said no.

I also asked two musicians who heard my system and they told me the sound, specifically the high frequencies, are much more realistic and natural sounding than my former system which they also heard.

Take that as you may. If you want a breakdown of all the audiophile sonic attributes of my system, you will have to ask someone who thinks in those terms and who has heard the system.

Absent that, there are the system videos to assess. I have to say there’s an awful lot of curiosity about the system. Is it because not many people have heard actual corner horn speakers? I mean this is not something that you can just drive to Goodwins high end to hear.

Yes, rarity definitely spurs a lot of interest.

 

[morricab]

I find this to be very correct. With complex, multi-driver speakers (e.g., Wilson XVX, YG XV Jr., Gryphon Kodo, Rockport, Evolution Acoustics, Von Schweikert) I like the low frequency extension and bass response of these speakers, and I do not hear anything amiss.

But when I listen to vintage 15 inch thin paper drivers (e.g., PBN M2!5 Jeff Tyo Special Edition) and Tannoy Westminster Royal Gold there is a holistic-ness, an organic-ness and a naturalness to the low frequency response (if not the last word in low frequency extension) that I notice and just hear as "ahhhh, that is right!"

Well a simple two-way horn is my preferred design...horn loading the bass gives a lot of mid bass shove even if it doesn’t go super deep. Coherence is greatly improved as well by keeping it two-way.

 

[DaveC]

On leading edges and transients, this is an aspect of performance that can be muted, realistic or over-done due to many different aspects of the system's design.

I am absolutely not surprised to hear Al's experience of it, because I know from my own experience what some of these aspects of a "natural sound" system will do.... overall you'll get a system with softer leading edges and a more homogenized sound. This is why nothing "sticks out", it's because the whole presentation is smoothed over compared to what other systems are capable of.

This has a major effect on how the audio system engages with your nervous system. The level of stimulation has a lot to do with how leading edges and transients are handled. A system with blunted leading edges will be more relaxing and may even put you to sleep. Overshooting leading edges can sound exciting but is ultimately fatiguing.

Different people prefer different levels of stimulation from their system, but few systems can scale stimulation with the recording, because the system is very rarely NEUTRAL. I would argue "natural sound" as ddk puts it is on the soft side of neutral and will homogenize to a degree. Other systems may always sound aggressive. I've worked very hard over decades so my system scales the stimulation level with the recording. Electronica can sound aggressive and amazingly sharp, but at the same time a live recording from mid-hall will sound relaxed.

Basing Natural Sound only on live classical recordings is a major weakness because there are a lot more genres of music to get to sound right, and IMO an good system should sound right on ALL recordings.

There are a ton of factors that can effect the leading edges, cables and AC power has a major effect, but so do things like resistor choice in amplifiers. Simply changing from old style carbon resistors like Kiwame to Mills wirewound in the power supply or cathode of a SET amp can radically change the leading edges. Low quality 4N silver cables can make leading edges leap out at the listener. Dirty AC power can add a splash or glare accent to leading edges. Cheap copper cables smooth out and homogenize the sound.

This is also why David has said one wrong cable can destroy the sound, it definitely can. One poorly designed power cable made out of cheap silver can totally destroy the sound of my system. One wrongly chosen resistor in my amplifier can have horrific consequences. It's amazing how much of a difference a simple resistor, capacitor or wire can make...

 

[ack]

Vitavox S2 roll off at 14k so that's why you might have heard the attenuation. I also would have preferred slightly higher treble In the two way Altec speaker that I loved.

The manufacturer claims "Frequency Response (Nominal) 30 Hz - 16 kHz" but no tolerance is provided:

Hidden behind the bronze grille of the top cover, the famous S2 pressure unit handles the mid and upper frequencies. Connected to a special variant of the R300W exponential dispersive horn with its high mass, non resonant construction it offers a smooth and super-detailed response up to 16kHz.

 

[DaveC]

Well a simple two-way horn is my preferred design...horn loading the bass gives a lot of mid bass shove even if it doesn’t go super deep. Coherence is greatly improved as well by keeping it two-way.

With most horn systems it's a massive compromise in high frequency performance though.

-3 dB at 16 kHz is completely unacceptable for me. For others it might be fine as they may not have the capacity to hear that high anymore... I can still hear past 18 kHz.

Coherence depends on design, it's certainly possible to have a coherent system that uses a tweeter! It just takes some work and is way beyond the abilities and patience of most hobbyists. For one, it's not a given that a tweeter will be compatible no matter what you do, you have to match the sound characteristics of the tweeter to the midrange or it'll never work, then you have to get the physical placement and crossover right.

 

[bonzo75]

The manufacturer claims "Frequency Response (Nominal) 30 Hz - 16 kHz" but no tolerance is provided:

Hidden behind the bronze grille of the top cover, the famous S2 pressure unit handles the mid and upper frequencies. Connected to a special variant of the R300W exponential dispersive horn with its high mass, non resonant construction it offers a smooth and super-detailed response up to 16kHz.

asked my friend to send me his measurements on a 550hz jmlc

 

[ack]

OK thanks, that says something, but what's the measurement unit on the Y axis

 

[bonzo75]

OK thanks, that says something, but what's the measurement unit on the Y axis

db in 5 db units

 

[Lampie519]

Even if it has a roll-off it will not be an issue, i guess that adding another speaker (super tweeter) will only add complexity (phase shifts etc. ) loosing the "naturalness" of the system...
It also means modifying a vintage speaker design...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

OK thanks, that says something, but what's the measurement unit on the Y axis

that is spl - here is a better image for you:

 

[bonzo75]

Even if it has a roll-off it will not be an issue, i guess that adding another speaker (super tweeter) will only add complexity (phase shifts etc. ) loosing the "naturalness" of the system...
It also means modifying a vintage speaker design...

there is always a debate on 2 way rolling off on 12 to 16k vs three way

 

[Lampie519]

there is always a debate on 2 way rolling off on 12 to 16k vs three way

True... then build a new speaker system from scratch or leave it as is, i would say.

 

[morricab]

With most horn systems it's a massive compromise in high frequency performance though.

-3 dB at 16 kHz is completely unacceptable for me. For others it might be fine as they may not have the capacity to hear that high anymore... I can still hear past 18 kHz.

Coherence depends on design, it's certainly possible to have a coherent system that uses a tweeter! It just takes some work and is way beyond the abilities and patience of most hobbyists. For one, it's not a given that a tweeter will be compatible no matter what you do, you have to match the sound characteristics of the tweeter to the midrange or it'll never work, then you have to get the physical placement and crossover right.

I never said it was impossible. My own speakers go at least to 18khz with the compression driver.

 

[ack]

that is spl - here is a better image for you:
View attachment 78733

Looks acceptable 1k to ~12kHz with a steep drop above that . But what's going on below 1kHz? Is this unechoic response, expecting the corner and walls to boost output?

 

[Lampie519]

-3 dB at 16 kHz is completely unacceptable for me. For others it might be fine as they may not have the capacity to hear that high anymore... I can still hear past 18 kHz.

I would not mind having a system with this limitation (as in case of a vintage system). But i would then have a second system (i guess many here have this option me included).

 

[Al M.]

Looks acceptable 1k to ~12kHz with a steep drop above that . But what's going on below 1kHz? Is this unechoic response, expecting the corner and walls to boost output?

It's just the S2 driver I think. The bass driver is coupled via cross-over point at 500 Hz.