Placebo effects in the extreme

[spazmatron]

as this thread harbours no ambition to cite measurements or is being discussed by such means why is it here?

really its not up for discussion or debate the mind fools, simple. the more elaborate your conscious scheme for avoiding this the more likely you are to be deluding yourself. it really is that simple.

how that affects our choices when it comes to hifi is for the most part irrelevant, unless you're a manufacturer or a reviewer (or in the business). if you're just in it for fun then why worry? other than maybe trying to avoid some wrong turns and wasting money but as most here enjoy the process even that's rendered moot.

just be aware that you could be wrong at all times.. really this is a excellent philosophy for all walks of life.

i can see why this notion is upsetting for some but that's more a factor for self reflection rather than endless attempts at fortification via these exchanges.

some of these exchanges read more like a debate\dispute between religious extremists rather than a friendly meeting of minds...

 

[nc42acc]

Spaz for president!!

as this thread harbours no ambition to cite measurements or discussed by such means why is it here?

really its not up for discussion or debate the mind fools, simple. the more elaborate your conscious scheme for avoiding this the more likely you are to be deluding yourself. it really is that simple.

how that affects our choices when it comes to hifi is for the most part irrelevant, unless you're a manufacturer or a reviewer (or in the business). if you're just in it for fun then why worry? other than maybe trying to avoid some wrong turns and wasting money but as most here enjoy the process even that's rendered moot.

just be aware that you could be wrong at all times.. really this is a excellent philosophy for all walks of life.

i can see why this notion is upsetting for some but that's more a factor for self reflection rather than endless attempts at fortification via these exchanges.

some of these exchanges read more like a debate\dispute between religious extremists rather than a friendly meeting of minds...

 

[bonzo75]

I realize that and hence the reason this forum has a different background color. And the discussion and posts clearly indicate such. As a minimum our admins and mods know or need to know what forum they are in before declaring things that go directly against the very charter Steve wrote.

So what measurement was the OP sharing using this thread on this forum? It seemed to be a thread hiding under the shroud of "measurement-based forum" for the sole purpose of mocking subjectivists. It should have been posted in the General section.

 

[spazmatron]

So what measurement was the OP sharing using this thread on this forum? It seemed to be a thread hiding under the shroud of "measurement-based forum" for the sole purpose of mocking subjectivists. It should have been posted in the General section.

we are audiophiles, we should be mocking ourselves on a regular basis. its the least we can do! you might find also that if you do this its much harder to be offended by random guys on the internet. in the olden days they would call the result of this behavior ' humility'

heaven forbid any of that disease breaks out here...

 

[amirm]

what a joke

Next time I look with my eyes I will pick the desert that looks twice as good

Only the magician needs to know the tricks, not the audience. Marketing tactics are there for the entity selling you things without the buyer knowing the same. Or else it would not work.

At the start of the high-definition disc format launch, I visited a high-end A/V company asking them to adopt the format. Their chief designer asked if they could make their own blue laser drive. I said no and that the Japanese and Koreans were unwilling to give up their know-how yet in that area. I asked them why they wanted to do such expensive development instead of just using one the drives from those companies. He said that they currently built their own DVD drive. He proceeded to tell me the incredible amount of research and testing they put in on the *sound* that the disc tray motor makes as it opens and closes! He said the mass market drives sound too cheap and won't do and refused to adopt the new format.

Fast forward 10 years later and one of reps shows up to our showroom. We started to chat and I asked him what his background was. He said that he worked for the high-end dealer across the street and prior to that sold car stereos. I asked how he managed to sell high-end gear after selling car stereo. He said at first it was impossible and he was getting his hat handed to him. Then he developed a technique that made him one of the top sales people in that store. Customer would walk in and want to buy a low cost DVD/CD player. He would show him one of those but then ask him to follow to another part where he would show the exact above unit from the A/V company I mentioned. He would proceed to just open the drawer on the unit and the sales would be done at 5 to 10X the retail price!!! I kid you not. He became the highest grossing salesperson for that company on the west coast just because of that motor sound. He said he never had to show that the unit sounded better. The impression of higher quality was enough.

That 20 pound of metal that your audio gear is milled out of has real value or everyone high-end device would come in some cheap plastic. The fact that you don't know what is being used to sell you things is the way it is supposed to work just like it did for the customers in that store.

So yes, you don't think you are swayed by prettier desert but you absolutely are. That is why many high-end restaurants bring the tray to the table. They know by tempting you with your eyes, the pocket can be emptier of money.

Don't think the marketing guys are idiots and have not figured out how to sell you things without you knowing. They are brilliant at it and without knowledge of how things work and faulty evaluations, you are babes in the woods.

 

[Argonaut]

So what measurement was the OP sharing using this thread on this forum? It seemed to be a thread hiding under the shroud of "measurement-based forum" for the sole purpose of mocking subjectivists. It should have been posted in the General section.

I was just formulating the very self same point myself, Good Grief!!! Concurring with bonzo and spaz in the same thread! let alone same week, Most disconcerting

 

[nc42acc]

Again words to live by. I am not perfect and can directly relate but I have the rest of my life to continue learning.

we are audiophiles, we should be mocking ourselves on a regular basis. its the least we can do! you might find also that if you do this its much harder to be offended by random guys on the internet. in the olden days they would call the result of this behavior ' humility'

heaven forbid any of that disease breaks out here...

 

[bonzo75]

I was just formulating the very self same point myself, Good Grief!!! Concurring with bonzo and spaz in the same thread! let alone same week, Most disconcerting

It's amazing how much you have matured in a week (paraphrasing Mark Twain, who said when I was 14, my dad knew nothing, by the time I turned 20, I was surprised to see how much he had learned in 6 years)

 

[spazmatron]

Only the magician needs to know the tricks, not the audience. Marketing tactics are there for the entity selling you things without the buyer knowing the same. Or else it would not work.

At the start of the high-definition disc format launch, I visited a high-end A/V company asking them to adopt the format. Their chief designer asked if they could make their own blue laser drive. I said no and that the Japanese and Koreans were unwilling to give up their know-how yet in that area. I asked them why they wanted to do such expensive development instead of just using one the drives from those companies. He said that they currently built their own DVD drive. He proceeded to tell me the incredible amount of research and testing they put in on the *sound* that the disc tray motor makes as it opens and closes! He said the mass market drives sound too cheap and won't do and refused to adopt the new format.

Fast forward 10 years later and one of reps shows up to our showroom. We started to chat and I asked him what his background was. He said that he worked for the high-end dealer across the street and prior to that sold car stereos. I asked how he managed to sell high-end gear after selling car stereo. He said at first it was impossible and he was getting his hat handed to him. Then he developed a technique that made him one of the top sales people in that store. Customer would walk in and want to buy a low cost DVD/CD player. He would show him one of those but then ask him to follow to another part where he would show the exact above unit from the A/V company I mentioned. He would proceed to just open the drawer on the unit and the sales would be done at 5 to 10X the retail price!!! I kid you not. He became the highest grossing salesperson for that company on the west coast just because of that motor sound. He said he never had to show that the unit sounded better. The impression of higher quality was enough.

That 20 pound of metal that your audio gear is milled out of has real value or everyone high-end device would come in some cheap plastic. The fact that you don't know what is being used to sell you things is the way it is supposed to work just like it did for the customers in that store.

So yes, you don't think you are swayed by prettier desert but you absolutely are. That is why many high-end restaurants bring the tray to the table. They know by tempting you with your eyes, the pocket can be emptier of money.

Don't think the marketing guys are idiots and have not figured out how to sell you things without you knowing. They are brilliant at it and without knowledge of how things work and faulty evaluations, you are babes in the woods.

millions has been invested into the sound a car door makes when it shuts, same thing. also the way things feel... same thing. its everywhere. the classic is the weight of a watch, the way buttons feel when depressed..

its endless.

to dispute this would be... well a bit of a concern

 

[spazmatron]

Spaz for president!!

surely you mean taxi for spaz!

that's the consensus round these parts.

 

[Ron Party]

as this thread harbours no ambition to cite measurements or is being discussed by such means why is it here?

really its not up for discussion or debate the mind fools, simple. the more elaborate your conscious scheme for avoiding this the more likely you are to be deluding yourself. it really is that simple.

how that affects our choices when it comes to hifi is for the most part irrelevant, unless you're a manufacturer or a reviewer (or in the business). if you're just in it for fun then why worry? other than maybe trying to avoid some wrong turns and wasting money but as most here enjoy the process even that's rendered moot.

just be aware that you could be wrong at all times.. really this is a excellent philosophy for all walks of life.

i can see why this notion is upsetting for some but that's more a factor for self reflection rather than endless attempts at fortification via these exchanges.

some of these exchanges read more like a debate\dispute between religious extremists rather than a friendly meeting of minds...

Just goes to show that a beautiful horse can be quite intellectually honest. I like it! A group of 1%er audiophiles? Well, sometimes not so much. An ounce of humility, as the beautiful horse has emphasized, would go a long way in these parts.

 

[Steve williams]

Only the magician needs to know the tricks, not the audience. Marketing tactics are there for the entity selling you things without the buyer knowing the same. Or else it would not work.

At the start of the high-definition disc format launch, I visited a high-end A/V company asking them to adopt the format. Their chief designer asked if they could make their own blue laser drive. I said no and that the Japanese and Koreans were unwilling to give up their know-how yet in that area. I asked them why they wanted to do such expensive development instead of just using one the drives from those companies. He said that they currently built their own DVD drive. He proceeded to tell me the incredible amount of research and testing they put in on the *sound* that the disc tray motor makes as it opens and closes! He said the mass market drives sound too cheap and won't do and refused to adopt the new format.

Fast forward 10 years later and one of reps shows up to our showroom. We started to chat and I asked him what his background was. He said that he worked for the high-end dealer across the street and prior to that sold car stereos. I asked how he managed to sell high-end gear after selling car stereo. He said at first it was impossible and he was getting his hat handed to him. Then he developed a technique that made him one of the top sales people in that store. Customer would walk in and want to buy a low cost DVD/CD player. He would show him one of those but then ask him to follow to another part where he would show the exact above unit from the A/V company I mentioned. He would proceed to just open the drawer on the unit and the sales would be done at 5 to 10X the retail price!!! I kid you not. He became the highest grossing salesperson for that company on the west coast just because of that motor sound. He said he never had to show that the unit sounded better. The impression of higher quality was enough.

That 20 pound of metal that your audio gear is milled out of has real value or everyone high-end device would come in some cheap plastic. The fact that you don't know what is being used to sell you things is the way it is supposed to work just like it did for the customers in that store.

So yes, you don't think you are swayed by prettier desert but you absolutely are. That is why many high-end restaurants bring the tray to the table. They know by tempting you with your eyes, the pocket can be emptier of money.

Don't think the marketing guys are idiots and have not figured out how to sell you things without you knowing. They are brilliant at it and without knowledge of how things work and faulty evaluations, you are babes in the woods.

Deflection and obfuscation. Was there an answer to my question in that

 

[Argonaut]

It's amazing how much you have matured in a week (paraphrasing Mark Twain, who said when I was 14, my dad knew nothing, by the time I turned 20, I was surprised to see how much he had learned in 6 years)

Oooooh, quoting Twain is it

I thought your post count seamed a little down on number of late bonz which led me to Concider whether you had finally adhered to another Twain quip?

" It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

Mark Twain.

 

[RayDunzl]

... He proceeded to tell me the incredible amount of research and testing they put in on the *sound* that the disc tray motor makes as it opens and closes!

TASCAM's best-selling CD-160 CD player has been updated to the new CD-200. The new player uses a brand new transport, the TEAC CD-5020A. The new transport is custom designed for audio playback with a smooth loading drawer and low clamping noise.

http://www.teac.eu/en/cd-5020a-at.html

They sold me! I bought one ($220) to replace my aging spinner (1997) that went all skippy on me.

 

[Argonaut]

TASCAM's best-selling CD-160 CD player has been updated to the new CD-200. The new player uses a brand new transport, the TEAC CD-5020A. The new transport is custom designed for audio playback with a smooth loading drawer and low clamping noise.

http://www.teac.eu/en/cd-5020a-at.html


They sold me! I bought one ($220) to replace my aging spinner (1997) that went all skippy on me.

I always wanted a transport mech that sounded like the bridge doors on the Enterprise.

 

[spazmatron]

I've known a few guys who thought they were pretty smart
But you've got being right down to an art
You think you're a genius-you drive me up the wall
You're a regular original, a know-it-all


You're Tarzan!
Captain Kirk maybe.
John Wayne.
Whatever!
That don't impress me much!

Twain...

 

[nc42acc]

Brilliant idea.

I always wanted a transport mech that sounded like the bridge doors on the Enterprise.

 

[esldude]

Oooooh, quoting Twain is it

I thought your post count seamed a little down on number of late bonz which led me to Concider whether you had finally adhered to another Twain quip?

" It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

Mark Twain.

More Twain,

 

[esldude]

as I see it lately you and your objectivist friends continually invade most every subjectivist thread here and not only derail it and take it off topic so I am trying to understand how you want to have the umbrella of protection at your door but those of us who choose to discuss things in subjectivist threads are finding that you and others enter these threads and totally derail them and take them off topic and continue to escape unscathed and without criticism so even though I created the door entry sign this can be easily changed. OTOH however it seems to me that subjectivist threads should (and will !!) be protected in the future by ANYONE who enters and does to those threads what you are trying to prevent here. The double standard is going to end.

Well that is quite the post. So if I with all sincerity have a different view, and it upsets people, by posting in your threads I am invading it? Having a different opinion on how to proceed with questions of what is better or best is attempting to derail it?

Would you prefer that I and others with similar views just shut up and stay out of your subjectivist threads? Please answer in green so I can know what you have in mind. Your above statement about protecting subjectivist threads along with the invasion and derailment ideas certainly indicate this is your preference.

So this particular forum was created to try and prevent upsetting people. And yes have a little different suggestion of what is useful in order to cut down on the back and forth of it. Here I create a topic asking for suggestions on how to communicate our different ideas effectively. Not for effectively derailing threads quite the reverse. For communicating in a way that doesn't upset people, doesn't cause a thread to become a bickerfest, and yet does allow for useful commentary. I look back less than a day later, and that actual question has been impossible to discuss for all the subjectivists who seem to be having a panicked hissy fit that such a topic is even on the WBF forum at all. Similar derailing, has been common in all the threads in this forum. As Amir has already stated, what can you consider that reaction other than intolerant?

 

[Steve williams]

I created the forum so you're preaching to the choir.

I have no problem with it. I do take exception that there is a double standard