Problem with Burmester 911 in dual mono

[sujay]

Hi, the 808 is warmer but that is compared to my 088. I havent compared it to the 077 which is a flagship alongside the 808. The 808 is also more modular as far as I know. The best person to comment on this is Rocco who has tried both and finally settled on the 808.

 

[Rocco I.]

I bet the distortion is higher in bridged mode than in stereo when driving 4 Ohm loads or lower; just because they work with such loads doesn't mean is ok to do it. And there's no way a 911 could give 1.2kW @ 2 Ohm when the amp only has a 750VA transformer.

There's a reason for the 909 existence; 2x911 =/= 1 x 909. If you want to drive 4 Ohm loads or lower it would be better to get a single 909 instead of two 911.

After a direct A/B comparison, i listened better musical performance at my ears with the 911's mk3 monos than 909 Mk5.

 

[Rocco I.]

I compared a burmester 911 mk3 with symphonic line Kraft on B&W 802'D3 with burmester 077 pre. The Kraft was better by quite a bit. It is also a popular pairing in Germany with this speaker. Used price is good, 10k euro for the 300w version.

According your reviews found on your web sites, seems you've listened the 911 with 088 preamp (maybe you've confused with 077). I've had the symphonic line Kraft with ProAc D38 and then after compared it with the Burmester 956 mk2, the Burmester sound much better by a wide margin. Then compared the 956 Mk2 with 911 Mk3, and 911 Mk3 sound much better at all. The 911 Mk3 is one of absolute best power amp with no price limit I've ever listened.

 

[Rocco I.]

Hi, I'm new to this forum so I will introduce myself before going into the subject.
I'm Jaap, 48 years and working in the entertainment industry as a stagehand/stagebuilder. I'm also a part time photographer (who isn't these days ;-)

Although music is my life (and my job), and I have always had a decent installation in both my car and at home, I only recently got into the 'high end' audio.
In fact it started at a photography job I got at a MBL demo in a high end audio store in Belgium. They had multiple setups , up to the giant reference set (with the ugly black/gold components, matter of taste I presume) and the huge omnidirectional speakertowers. While doing my job as a photographer, I also joined the lsitening session and was impressed. I never heard music like this , apart maybe from live accoustic sessions, So I decided to get my own high end set.

I already owned a pair of B&W 802N's, driven by two Vincent 331's in bi-amp mode. According to some reviews, the Vincents should sound as well as amps way above their price level but when I started my search for better amps, I found out that this claim was exaggerated, and not even mildly.

I listened to many systems; Krell (KAS 2), Pass Labs 250.5, temporarely owned a pair of Mark Levinson's 20.6 monoblocks (with which I had a hard time finding the right preamp for them), I found many differnces in sound signature, and price levels of course and wasn't able to find a set I both loved and could afford. Until one day I was visiting a friend who had the same B&W speakers and had borrowed a set from a friend to put up for sale. This set was a Burmester 061, 035 and a 911MK3. I was immediately sold. This was definitely the soud I was lookig for and although the price was still above my budget (or rather what I wanted to spend), the price was a bargain compared to the new price (10.000 euro for the whole set ,which was 6 years old). So I didn't hesitate and bought it.

While very happy with the sound, after a while I wanted more (of course). So I upgraded my speakers to a pair of 800D's, this definitely improved the bass and depth of the sound. Then after reading many fora and reviews I learned that an extra 911 would be the way to go next. So I did.
I found a pre owned 911 at a Burmester dealer and bought it together with two mono adapters (original Burmester silver) to bridge my stereo configured 911's.

That is when the problems started. Yes, I got more power, bigger soundstage, even more bass and depth but somehow the balance in the sound seemed off. Also the dynamics seemed to suffer. Where before I turned the volume to listening level and never felt the need to adjust it (unless I changed the CD of course). Now suddenly the louder parts in a song made me run for the remote to turn it down. Mainly because some oversteering seemed to happen in the high frequency range. I also noticed that some hiss/noise (no hum) was coming from the tweeters when no music was playing. Before there was also a slight hiss, but only audible when you put your ear right next to the tweeter.

After discussing the problem with the Burmester dealer (he even visited me), he concluded that my preamp was causing the problem. And while I was selling off my surround gear anyway bc it didn't add much to the great sound I got from my stereosystem, he made me a great deal, all my surround stuff + my 035 and 061 (and some extra cash) for a brand new Burmester 111!

When I got it and installed it (together with the dealer), the problem remained. The dealer could hear it too, but the only solution he could think of was a problem with the power distribution so he gave me furutech power distributor in exchange for a pair of (now obsolete) Burmester silver interlinks. Again, a good eal but it didn't solve the problem.

Because the dealer couldn't provide an explanation for the problem , I tried to do some research myself. Problem is, although I work with professional audio, I have no technical education or background so most terms and specs have little or no meaning to me. What I did notice however when I compared the spec sheets of the various Burmester preamps is that while the 088 and 077 which are often used in combination with 2 911's in the reviews have an output voltage of 24 volts, the 035 and 111 provide only 12 volts of output (even though the 111 has an 077 built in). I wonder if this might be tthe cause of the problem. I mailed Burmester about this but they claim it shouldn't be a problem at all and that they use this setup regularly in demo's.

Does anyone here know what might be the problem with my system and/or is my theory about the voltage output right?
My setup is as follows; Burmester 111 connected to 2 911's mono bridged by Burmester silver mono adapters with a Burmester silver XLR extension interlink to the Burmester 111.

BTW , I also tried bi-amping with regular XLR splitters, which reduced the problem but at the cost of the power, definition and other benefits I had with the dual mono. The only real solution so far is connecting the 111 to one 911. Which gives me back the sound I loved with my initial configuration, the balance and dynamics are back and more defintion (I think) probably bc of the superiour preamp/dac of the 111 compared to the 061 + 035. But hardly justifies my expensive upgrade path.

Yours is a very strage issue. The 911 mk3 monos sound very much better in all regards than a single stereo unit. This with all speakers I've experienced, including B&W and Sonus Faber. I suggest you to test the mono-configuration with a new pair of burmester silver mono adapters. It the issue still persistes, better you consult Burmester service engineer at Berlin.

 

[bonzo75]

According your reviews found on your web sites, seems you've listened the 911 with 088 preamp (maybe you've confused with 077). I've had the symphonic line Kraft with ProAc D38 and then after compared it with the Burmester 956 mk2, the Burmester sound much better by a wide margin. Then compared the 956 Mk2 with 911 Mk3, and 911 Mk3 sound much better at all. The 911 Mk3 is one of absolute best power amp with no price limit I've ever listened.

Yes that's correct. In this case it was the 088. In another case (report not yet on the site) I compared 077 with with AR LS 29 and with burmester 911 mk3 as pre and preferred the AR.

Also compared 911 mk3 to gryphon colosseum with a gryphon pre and preferred the gryphon.

I know you are a fan of burmester. I am not, except for the phono. In SS phonos, I like their phono, super low noise floor

 

[Rocco I.]

Yes that's correct. In this case it was the 088. In another case (report not yet on the site) I compared 077 with with AR LS 29 and with burmester 911 mk3 as pre and preferred the AR.

Also compared 911 mk3 to gryphon colosseum with a gryphon pre and preferred the gryphon.

I know you are a fan of burmester. I am not, except for the phono. In SS phonos, I like their phono, super low noise floor

I am not a fan of Burmester. I am a music lover, listening live music in most all famous parts of the world since 25 years. The music is my personal reference and I am emotioned when I listen an audio system able to sound correctly with a certain value of real. Burmester at my ears and most ones of real worldwide true experts sound correctly and neutral. I know well the products you have listened/reviewed , but sincerely I disagree with most of your personal comments. You like also the tube and horn speakers. I don't. We've each other a total different meaning of a correct music reproduction.

 

[JaapV8]

Yours is a very strage issue. The 911 mk3 monos sound very much better in all regards than a single stereo unit. This with all speakers I've experienced, including B&W and Sonus Faber. I suggest you to test the mono-configuration with a new pair of burmester silver mono adapters. It the issue still persistes, better you consult Burmester service engineer at Berlin.

I've already contacted Burmester, and their reply was that there should be no problem.
I know the 911's should work properly in dual mono with both B&W's ,Sonus Faber or any other speaker that cn handle the load. I'm still convinced that it's the built in 077 preamp of the 111 that is causing the problem. The B&W's might suffer more from it then the Strads I have now, but still, the 111 sounds better (more balanced and dynamic) with one 911 then 2. Almost all the reviews/user experiences with dual 911's were driven by a 088 or (seperate) 077, or 808. As I said before ,I'm not an electronic engineer, but if you compare the spec sheets of the forementioned preamps to the 111's, the 088 & 077 have very similar specs in output voltage, impedance and S/N ratio (rather identical), but differ in almost all aspects entirely from the 111 with it's claimed 077 built in.

I have used 3 kinds of splitters already; the custom made ones by the dealer, the originals provided by the Burmester distributor and a pair I made myself from regular, but good quality XLR cable. No differences there

Also a German seller told me before that the built in amp of the 111 was not on par with even the 088. He advised me to drive 2 911's with at least the 088, the 077 being a minor upgrade, unless you get the one with external PS. He himself was a fan of the 808, but claimed that the difference between a 077 with external PS and the 808 MK5 would be more a matter of taste/preference then quality (also depending on what source(s) you plan to use).

Anyway , the problems I.m experiencing seem to indicate an amp mismatch, that the preamp is inadequate to dirve 2 x 911 mono's with a stable signal. Can't think of any other explanation, all devices work well, all cables too, and the 111 works properly with one 911. The problems are way less with the Sonus Faber Strads (almost gone, except for some tracks which still tend to sound harsh using 2 911's) , but still I feel there is a lot to be gained. So I can't wait to try my set with a 808 or 077 with PS. Yet, I'm still waiting for the dealer to provide his promised service.

 

[christoph]

I've already contacted Burmester, and their reply was that there should be no problem.
I know the 911's should work properly in dual mono with both B&W's ,Sonus Faber or any other speaker that cn handle the load. I'm still convinced that it's the built in 077 preamp of the 111 that is causing the problem. The B&W's might suffer more from it then the Strads I have now, but still, the 111 sounds better (more balanced and dynamic) with one 911 then 2. Almost all the reviews/user experiences with dual 911's were driven by a 088 or (seperate) 077, or 808. As I said before ,I'm not an electronic engineer, but if you compare the spec sheets of the forementioned preamps to the 111's, the 088 & 077 have very similar specs in output voltage, impedance and S/N ratio (rather identical), but differ in almost all aspects entirely from the 111 with it's claimed 077 built in.

I have used 3 kinds of splitters already; the custom made ones by the dealer, the originals provided by the Burmester distributor and a pair I made myself from regular, but good quality XLR cable. No differences there

Also a German seller told me before that the built in amp of the 111 was not on par with even the 088. He advised me to drive 2 911's with at least the 088, the 077 being a minor upgrade, unless you get the one with external PS. He himself was a fan of the 808, but claimed that the difference between a 077 with external PS and the 808 MK5 would be more a matter of taste/preference then quality (also depending on what source(s) you plan to use).

Anyway , the problems I.m experiencing seem to indicate an amp mismatch, that the preamp is inadequate to dirve 2 x 911 mono's with a stable signal. Can't think of any other explanation, all devices work well, all cables too, and the 111 works properly with one 911. The problems are way less with the Sonus Faber Strads (almost gone, except for some tracks which still tend to sound harsh using 2 911's) , but still I feel there is a lot to be gained. So I can't wait to try my set with a 808 or 077 with PS. Yet, I'm still waiting for the dealer to provide his promised service.

Have you tried both 911 poweramps alone on the 111?
To make sure it isn't one of your poweramps acting up...

 

[JaapV8]

Have you tried both 911 poweramps alone on the 111?
To make sure it isn't one of your poweramps acting up...

of course

 

[JaapV8]

Hi Everybody,

Today I finally was able to do some testing regarding my not so good sounding set of Burmester 111 with 2 Burmester 911mk3 in bridged mono.
A dealer in Belgium who also sells Burmester was so kind to let me bring over my set for testing.
First we set up my set as it is, so the 111 + 2x 911 on a pair of B&W 802d3's, the resulting sound; flat, messy and occasionally sharp. Same experience as at home.
Then we connected the set to the Sonus Faber Electa Amator 3, sounded better, just like at home when I switched from my 800D's to SF Stradivari. But still the same problems although Sonus Faber speakers seem to be more 'forgiving' then the B&W's where at louder levels you would sometimes run for the volume control.
Is it all that bad? no, but it definitely doesn't sound like 5 figure costing system. And didn't even reach the level of my starting system before my upgrade path; one 911 with 035, 061 on a set of B&W 802N's.

Then we put my theory to the test, my idea was that the 111 was inadequate to drive two 911's, just like my 035. So we put a 808mk5 into the chain.
This brought an improvement, but not the solution I was expecting or hoping for.

Then we left out the 111 and used the T&A PDP 3000 HV as source. Now we were getting there; increased dynamics, placement, no sharp edges anymore and the joy of listening started kicking in.

Next; replaced the 2 911's for one 909mk5. Again a big improvement. I will go into details later. But I started wondering, what does an entire T+A chain do? With a bit of fear, since I have loved the looks and sound of Burmester for quite some time and hadn't even looked at other brands since.
So we made a setup of the PDP 3000 HV CD/SACD player, P 3000 HV preamp and A 3000 HV poweramp, again with the Electas.

I played my reference CD's for more then an hour and both I and my ex girlfriend that I took with me today (and who is also familiar with my system and reference music) were both stunned by the detail, placement and control the T+A system delivered. Hearing details we never before in certain tracks. Although I thought I sometimes felt that I missed some musicality and authority or I really don't know what, my audiophile dictionary and poetry isn't as good as many pro reviewers. but I thought that was maybe due to the fact that the electa's are bookshelf speaakers and not big full range giants like my strads. I asked the dealer about his honest opinion (while he was working on a deal to sell me the 909 and he is a Burmester fan himself) about what to do. He answered, to be honest , when u will stick with Sonus Faber , go for an entire T+A set.

I felt it as a confirmation of what I just experienced and went outside with my ex for smoke and think things over. My thoughts; should I really say goodbye to Burmester and give up my dream to one day own my beloved 808mk5, which I think is nothing less then a gem (my ex apparently agreed on that since she kept taking pictures of the device), and go with great sounding but plain looking T+A's. No offence, the T+A's are built like tanks, have a nice finish, breathe quality and sturdiness in both appearance and handling with solid buttons, but don't have the visual appeal of Burmester. And although the set seemed to outclass the Burmester in so many aspects (not by a big margin but definitely audible), I also felt I missed something.
So I went back and asked the dealer to hook up the 808 + 909 again with the T+A PDP 3000 remaining as the source. I replayed the last tracks of the previous session and ... shivers. Yes, a bit detail of the previous experience was gone, as well as the clearer placement of instruments. But the music sounded more as a whole, like ...well...music..

My conclusions of the day;
-the Burmester 111 all-in-one might be ok for a casual listener who seeks the convenience of such a device, I feel it doesn't belong in the 'reference class' of Burmester since its not a great pre-amp ,DAC, player or streamer. Definitely not at that pricepoint.
-T+A is a very underrated (at least not well known) top class brand, definitely high end. That I found it missing something might have to do more with my personal taste and my love for the Burmester sound and looks then an objective observation. It doesn't lack musicality or is overanalytic, I just loved it more in combination with Burmester amps. It might be just right or more for many others so I recommend everyone to at least try them.
- In my opinion the 909 stereo sounds way better then dual bridged 911's, according to the dealer this might be that while bridging might increase the power output, it goes at the cost of the damping factor). Maybe factory made mono's sound better, I don't know, but so far I haven't been able to make them 'shine' with the external mono adapters. More power, yes, but at the cost of dynamics ,control and detail.
-For me the T+A source/DAC, the Burmester 808 + 909 on Sonus Faber feels like a combination made in heaven.

For what it's worth, my experience of the day.

Have a nice weekend...

Jaap

 

[Anatta]

Would have been interesting to also try the P3000HV and the 077 (if the dealer had one) preamps with the 909mk5 amp; I think the loss of details and imaging precision was due to the 808 preamp.

 

[Legolas]

Jaap, have you considered tube amplifiers, and R2R DACs? Solid State can be good, but SETs do something totally magical I haven't heard in SS. Your Sonus Fabers are asking for a nice 65 watt big bottle SET!

 

[JaapV8]

Would have been interesting to also try the P3000HV and the 077 (if the dealer had one) preamps with the 909mk5 amp; I think the loss of details and imaging precision was due to the 808 preamp.

I didn't try the 077 (although the 111 is supposed to have an onboard 077, but didn't really excel at imaging, or any other aspect for that matter). It's also the first time I hear this from someone after having read multiple online discussions about the 077 (with PS) vs the 808. Many claim they sound different but use terms like warmth and neutrality, rarely if ever did I see people mention difference in soundstage or imaging And which one is better would be a matter of taste with many preferring the 808 , even though 077 is supposed to be better bc it's a more modern amp using later (and probably better) technologies. Although opinions may be biased by the looks of the 808 (I'll admit I'm not immune to that aspect either).

Also I didn't try the combo T+A source + pre on the 909 which might also have resulted in preserving the superior detail and placement with the added warmth of Burmester. But to be honest, since my system forms the 'heart' of my livingroom and I value esthetics quite a lot (for example I know that some Wilson and Audio Note speakers sound great, but they will never find their way into my livingroom bc I think they are ugly as hell), A lot will be needed to get my mind off the 808.

 

[JaapV8]

Jaap, have you considered tube amplifiers, and R2R DACs? Solid State can be good, but SETs do something totally magical I haven't heard in SS. Your Sonus Fabers are asking for a nice 65 watt big bottle SET!

Yes I did. In fact after reading your thread about the Aries Cerat Kassandra ref 2, I contacted the Belgian distributor in Leuven and I hope to be a able to go there this week for auditioning. Unfortunately I don't expect him to have Sonus Fabers and I have no intention to rent a van and take my Strads over there. And I've also always loved the look of tube amps, but I understood they need considerable warm up time, and tubes need replacement from time to time. Not to mention the brand/type of tubes also seem to be quite relevant, with each type having it's own characteristics. Making me a bit afraid of needing to do a crash course on electronics or an endless (and costly) path of trial and error.
But I'm definitely curious about what a Aries Cerat (50kg!) DAC sounds like.

 

[Anatta]

It's true, nothing comes quite close to the Burmester chrome mirror finish, looks great.

If aesthetics are important to you I'd also check the Accuphase C-3850, very refined looking with its champagne color and polished red wood case; from what I can see in your profile pic would blend well into your livingroom.

 

[Legolas]

Yes I did. In fact after reading your thread about the Aries Cerat Kassandra ref 2, I contacted the Belgian distributor in Leuven and I hope to be a able to go there this week for auditioning. Unfortunately I don't expect him to have Sonus Fabers and I have no intention to rent a van and take my Strads over there. And I've also always loved the look of tube amps, but I understood they need considerable warm up time, and tubes need replacement from time to time. Not to mention the brand/type of tubes also seem to be quite relevant, with each type having it's own characteristics. Making me a bit afraid of needing to do a crash course on electronics or an endless (and costly) path of trial and error.
But I'm definitely curious about what a Aries Cerat (50kg!) DAC sounds like.

Jaap, I would not worry about the tube subject.

1. The smaller tubes AC use last 10,000 hours and cost circa 60 USD a pair. Different makes are around, but the best are made by Siemens.
2. The big bottle 813 power tube was invented by RCA back in 1948. It is easy to find, and I paid 200 USD for a pair. They last about 2,000 hours at least. I got 4 pairs of the RCAs on Ebay, no problems. So I have enough tubes for 8-10 years.
3. Warm up. No problem, my Genus sounds great immediately, and improves over 30 minutes. Just like my previous solid state power amps. But the SET magic leaves SS in the dust.
4. The Genus and the other models have a warm up cycle from switch on, that delays the tube voltage by 2 minutes. It protects the tubes.
5. Biasing the tubes is a piece of cake. There are meters on the top of the chassis and pots to adjust on the fly. It is super easy and you don't need to do it very often, maybe 2 months apart.
6. There is a bias range to adjust within. This tweaks the sound and can be very useful to balance your sound with your speaker.

Sum up, sound much better to my ears than any SS I have used, easy to use and as practical as SS amplifiers. In fact the Genus gas less hot than my previous SS class A power amp.

I notice you had some issues with the sound you heard, even on the demo system. I had the same issues. With my SS amps I had power, bass control and dynamics, but it didn't sound realistic. Also the treble quality was a touch strident, cold and flat. It also sounded thin in low to medium volumes, only sounding more balanced played really loud.

With the AC SETs the music has more body, more flesh to the notes, better texture and timbre and a bigger layering and soundstage. Also micro detail is easy to pick out and place in the soundstage. And it sounds equally good at low-high levels, so is much more balanced in real world use in my system. And the treble is silky smooth but highly transparent, female vocals and strings, piano are off the scale good. I actually like lots of type of music inc Reggae and EDM, and the AC SET eat this type of music as well.

Don't let anyone tell you SETs are flee powered either, the volume I can get on my 25W Genus is incredible,. It has really dynamics and bass control. Big bottle SETs are the best.