Hi, the 808 is warmer but that is compared to my 088. I havent compared it to the 077 which is a flagship alongside the 808. The 808 is also more modular as far as I know. The best person to comment on this is Rocco who has tried both and finally settled on the 808.
Problem with Burmester 911 in dual mono
- Thread starter JaapV8
- Start date
After a direct A/B comparison, i listened better musical performance at my ears with the 911's mk3 monos than 909 Mk5.
According your reviews found on your web sites, seems you've listened the 911 with 088 preamp (maybe you've confused with 077). I've had the symphonic line Kraft with ProAc D38 and then after compared it with the Burmester 956 mk2, the Burmester sound much better by a wide margin. Then compared the 956 Mk2 with 911 Mk3, and 911 Mk3 sound much better at all. The 911 Mk3 is one of absolute best power amp with no price limit I've ever listened.
Yours is a very strage issue. The 911 mk3 monos sound very much better in all regards than a single stereo unit. This with all speakers I've experienced, including B&W and Sonus Faber. I suggest you to test the mono-configuration with a new pair of burmester silver mono adapters. It the issue still persistes, better you consult Burmester service engineer at Berlin.
Yes that's correct. In this case it was the 088. In another case (report not yet on the site) I compared 077 with with AR LS 29 and with burmester 911 mk3 as pre and preferred the AR.
Also compared 911 mk3 to gryphon colosseum with a gryphon pre and preferred the gryphon.
I know you are a fan of burmester. I am not, except for the phono. In SS phonos, I like their phono, super low noise floor
I am not a fan of Burmester. I am a music lover, listening live music in most all famous parts of the world since 25 years. The music is my personal reference and I am emotioned when I listen an audio system able to sound correctly with a certain value of real. Burmester at my ears and most ones of real worldwide true experts sound correctly and neutral. I know well the products you have listened/reviewed , but sincerely I disagree with most of your personal comments. You like also the tube and horn speakers. I don't. We've each other a total different meaning of a correct music reproduction.
I've already contacted Burmester, and their reply was that there should be no problem.
I know the 911's should work properly in dual mono with both B&W's ,Sonus Faber or any other speaker that cn handle the load. I'm still convinced that it's the built in 077 preamp of the 111 that is causing the problem. The B&W's might suffer more from it then the Strads I have now, but still, the 111 sounds better (more balanced and dynamic) with one 911 then 2. Almost all the reviews/user experiences with dual 911's were driven by a 088 or (seperate) 077, or 808. As I said before ,I'm not an electronic engineer, but if you compare the spec sheets of the forementioned preamps to the 111's, the 088 & 077 have very similar specs in output voltage, impedance and S/N ratio (rather identical), but differ in almost all aspects entirely from the 111 with it's claimed 077 built in.
I have used 3 kinds of splitters already; the custom made ones by the dealer, the originals provided by the Burmester distributor and a pair I made myself from regular, but good quality XLR cable. No differences there
Also a German seller told me before that the built in amp of the 111 was not on par with even the 088. He advised me to drive 2 911's with at least the 088, the 077 being a minor upgrade, unless you get the one with external PS. He himself was a fan of the 808, but claimed that the difference between a 077 with external PS and the 808 MK5 would be more a matter of taste/preference then quality (also depending on what source(s) you plan to use).
Anyway , the problems I.m experiencing seem to indicate an amp mismatch, that the preamp is inadequate to dirve 2 x 911 mono's with a stable signal. Can't think of any other explanation, all devices work well, all cables too, and the 111 works properly with one 911. The problems are way less with the Sonus Faber Strads (almost gone, except for some tracks which still tend to sound harsh using 2 911's) , but still I feel there is a lot to be gained. So I can't wait to try my set with a 808 or 077 with PS. Yet, I'm still waiting for the dealer to provide his promised service.
Have you tried both 911 poweramps alone on the 111?
To make sure it isn't one of your poweramps acting up...
Hi Everybody,
Today I finally was able to do some testing regarding my not so good sounding set of Burmester 111 with 2 Burmester 911mk3 in bridged mono.
A dealer in Belgium who also sells Burmester was so kind to let me bring over my set for testing.
First we set up my set as it is, so the 111 + 2x 911 on a pair of B&W 802d3's, the resulting sound; flat, messy and occasionally sharp. Same experience as at home.
Then we connected the set to the Sonus Faber Electa Amator 3, sounded better, just like at home when I switched from my 800D's to SF Stradivari. But still the same problems although Sonus Faber speakers seem to be more 'forgiving' then the B&W's where at louder levels you would sometimes run for the volume control.
Is it all that bad? no, but it definitely doesn't sound like 5 figure costing system. And didn't even reach the level of my starting system before my upgrade path; one 911 with 035, 061 on a set of B&W 802N's.
Then we put my theory to the test, my idea was that the 111 was inadequate to drive two 911's, just like my 035. So we put a 808mk5 into the chain.
This brought an improvement, but not the solution I was expecting or hoping for.
Then we left out the 111 and used the T&A PDP 3000 HV as source. Now we were getting there; increased dynamics, placement, no sharp edges anymore and the joy of listening started kicking in.
Next; replaced the 2 911's for one 909mk5. Again a big improvement. I will go into details later. But I started wondering, what does an entire T+A chain do? With a bit of fear, since I have loved the looks and sound of Burmester for quite some time and hadn't even looked at other brands since.
So we made a setup of the PDP 3000 HV CD/SACD player, P 3000 HV preamp and A 3000 HV poweramp, again with the Electas.
I played my reference CD's for more then an hour and both I and my ex girlfriend that I took with me today (and who is also familiar with my system and reference music) were both stunned by the detail, placement and control the T+A system delivered. Hearing details we never before in certain tracks. Although I thought I sometimes felt that I missed some musicality and authority or I really don't know what, my audiophile dictionary and poetry isn't as good as many pro reviewers. but I thought that was maybe due to the fact that the electa's are bookshelf speaakers and not big full range giants like my strads. I asked the dealer about his honest opinion (while he was working on a deal to sell me the 909 and he is a Burmester fan himself) about what to do. He answered, to be honest , when u will stick with Sonus Faber , go for an entire T+A set.
I felt it as a confirmation of what I just experienced and went outside with my ex for smoke and think things over. My thoughts; should I really say goodbye to Burmester and give up my dream to one day own my beloved 808mk5, which I think is nothing less then a gem (my ex apparently agreed on that since she kept taking pictures of the device), and go with great sounding but plain looking T+A's. No offence, the T+A's are built like tanks, have a nice finish, breathe quality and sturdiness in both appearance and handling with solid buttons, but don't have the visual appeal of Burmester. And although the set seemed to outclass the Burmester in so many aspects (not by a big margin but definitely audible), I also felt I missed something.
So I went back and asked the dealer to hook up the 808 + 909 again with the T+A PDP 3000 remaining as the source. I replayed the last tracks of the previous session and ... shivers. Yes, a bit detail of the previous experience was gone, as well as the clearer placement of instruments. But the music sounded more as a whole, like ...well...music..
My conclusions of the day;
-the Burmester 111 all-in-one might be ok for a casual listener who seeks the convenience of such a device, I feel it doesn't belong in the 'reference class' of Burmester since its not a great pre-amp ,DAC, player or streamer. Definitely not at that pricepoint.
-T+A is a very underrated (at least not well known) top class brand, definitely high end. That I found it missing something might have to do more with my personal taste and my love for the Burmester sound and looks then an objective observation. It doesn't lack musicality or is overanalytic, I just loved it more in combination with Burmester amps. It might be just right or more for many others so I recommend everyone to at least try them.
- In my opinion the 909 stereo sounds way better then dual bridged 911's, according to the dealer this might be that while bridging might increase the power output, it goes at the cost of the damping factor). Maybe factory made mono's sound better, I don't know, but so far I haven't been able to make them 'shine' with the external mono adapters. More power, yes, but at the cost of dynamics ,control and detail.
-For me the T+A source/DAC, the Burmester 808 + 909 on Sonus Faber feels like a combination made in heaven.
For what it's worth, my experience of the day.
Have a nice weekend...
Jaap
Today I finally was able to do some testing regarding my not so good sounding set of Burmester 111 with 2 Burmester 911mk3 in bridged mono.
A dealer in Belgium who also sells Burmester was so kind to let me bring over my set for testing.
First we set up my set as it is, so the 111 + 2x 911 on a pair of B&W 802d3's, the resulting sound; flat, messy and occasionally sharp. Same experience as at home.
Then we connected the set to the Sonus Faber Electa Amator 3, sounded better, just like at home when I switched from my 800D's to SF Stradivari. But still the same problems although Sonus Faber speakers seem to be more 'forgiving' then the B&W's where at louder levels you would sometimes run for the volume control.
Is it all that bad? no, but it definitely doesn't sound like 5 figure costing system. And didn't even reach the level of my starting system before my upgrade path; one 911 with 035, 061 on a set of B&W 802N's.
Then we put my theory to the test, my idea was that the 111 was inadequate to drive two 911's, just like my 035. So we put a 808mk5 into the chain.
This brought an improvement, but not the solution I was expecting or hoping for.
Then we left out the 111 and used the T&A PDP 3000 HV as source. Now we were getting there; increased dynamics, placement, no sharp edges anymore and the joy of listening started kicking in.
Next; replaced the 2 911's for one 909mk5. Again a big improvement. I will go into details later. But I started wondering, what does an entire T+A chain do? With a bit of fear, since I have loved the looks and sound of Burmester for quite some time and hadn't even looked at other brands since.
So we made a setup of the PDP 3000 HV CD/SACD player, P 3000 HV preamp and A 3000 HV poweramp, again with the Electas.
I played my reference CD's for more then an hour and both I and my ex girlfriend that I took with me today (and who is also familiar with my system and reference music) were both stunned by the detail, placement and control the T+A system delivered. Hearing details we never before in certain tracks. Although I thought I sometimes felt that I missed some musicality and authority or I really don't know what, my audiophile dictionary and poetry isn't as good as many pro reviewers. but I thought that was maybe due to the fact that the electa's are bookshelf speaakers and not big full range giants like my strads. I asked the dealer about his honest opinion (while he was working on a deal to sell me the 909 and he is a Burmester fan himself) about what to do. He answered, to be honest , when u will stick with Sonus Faber , go for an entire T+A set.
I felt it as a confirmation of what I just experienced and went outside with my ex for smoke and think things over. My thoughts; should I really say goodbye to Burmester and give up my dream to one day own my beloved 808mk5, which I think is nothing less then a gem (my ex apparently agreed on that since she kept taking pictures of the device), and go with great sounding but plain looking T+A's. No offence, the T+A's are built like tanks, have a nice finish, breathe quality and sturdiness in both appearance and handling with solid buttons, but don't have the visual appeal of Burmester. And although the set seemed to outclass the Burmester in so many aspects (not by a big margin but definitely audible), I also felt I missed something.
So I went back and asked the dealer to hook up the 808 + 909 again with the T+A PDP 3000 remaining as the source. I replayed the last tracks of the previous session and ... shivers. Yes, a bit detail of the previous experience was gone, as well as the clearer placement of instruments. But the music sounded more as a whole, like ...well...music..
My conclusions of the day;
-the Burmester 111 all-in-one might be ok for a casual listener who seeks the convenience of such a device, I feel it doesn't belong in the 'reference class' of Burmester since its not a great pre-amp ,DAC, player or streamer. Definitely not at that pricepoint.
-T+A is a very underrated (at least not well known) top class brand, definitely high end. That I found it missing something might have to do more with my personal taste and my love for the Burmester sound and looks then an objective observation. It doesn't lack musicality or is overanalytic, I just loved it more in combination with Burmester amps. It might be just right or more for many others so I recommend everyone to at least try them.
- In my opinion the 909 stereo sounds way better then dual bridged 911's, according to the dealer this might be that while bridging might increase the power output, it goes at the cost of the damping factor). Maybe factory made mono's sound better, I don't know, but so far I haven't been able to make them 'shine' with the external mono adapters. More power, yes, but at the cost of dynamics ,control and detail.
-For me the T+A source/DAC, the Burmester 808 + 909 on Sonus Faber feels like a combination made in heaven.
For what it's worth, my experience of the day.
Have a nice weekend...
Jaap
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I didn't try the 077 (although the 111 is supposed to have an onboard 077, but didn't really excel at imaging, or any other aspect for that matter). It's also the first time I hear this from someone after having read multiple online discussions about the 077 (with PS) vs the 808. Many claim they sound different but use terms like warmth and neutrality, rarely if ever did I see people mention difference in soundstage or imaging And which one is better would be a matter of taste with many preferring the 808 , even though 077 is supposed to be better bc it's a more modern amp using later (and probably better) technologies. Although opinions may be biased by the looks of the 808 (I'll admit I'm not immune to that aspect either).
Also I didn't try the combo T+A source + pre on the 909 which might also have resulted in preserving the superior detail and placement with the added warmth of Burmester. But to be honest, since my system forms the 'heart' of my livingroom and I value esthetics quite a lot (for example I know that some Wilson and Audio Note speakers sound great, but they will never find their way into my livingroom bc I think they are ugly as hell), A lot will be needed to get my mind off the 808.
Yes I did. In fact after reading your thread about the Aries Cerat Kassandra ref 2, I contacted the Belgian distributor in Leuven and I hope to be a able to go there this week for auditioning. Unfortunately I don't expect him to have Sonus Fabers and I have no intention to rent a van and take my Strads over there. And I've also always loved the look of tube amps, but I understood they need considerable warm up time, and tubes need replacement from time to time. Not to mention the brand/type of tubes also seem to be quite relevant, with each type having it's own characteristics. Making me a bit afraid of needing to do a crash course on electronics or an endless (and costly) path of trial and error.
But I'm definitely curious about what a Aries Cerat (50kg!) DAC sounds like.
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It's true, nothing comes quite close to the Burmester chrome mirror finish, looks great.
If aesthetics are important to you I'd also check the Accuphase C-3850, very refined looking with its champagne color and polished red wood case; from what I can see in your profile pic would blend well into your livingroom.
If aesthetics are important to you I'd also check the Accuphase C-3850, very refined looking with its champagne color and polished red wood case; from what I can see in your profile pic would blend well into your livingroom.
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Jaap, I would not worry about the tube subject.
1. The smaller tubes AC use last 10,000 hours and cost circa 60 USD a pair. Different makes are around, but the best are made by Siemens.
2. The big bottle 813 power tube was invented by RCA back in 1948. It is easy to find, and I paid 200 USD for a pair. They last about 2,000 hours at least. I got 4 pairs of the RCAs on Ebay, no problems. So I have enough tubes for 8-10 years.
3. Warm up. No problem, my Genus sounds great immediately, and improves over 30 minutes. Just like my previous solid state power amps. But the SET magic leaves SS in the dust.
4. The Genus and the other models have a warm up cycle from switch on, that delays the tube voltage by 2 minutes. It protects the tubes.
5. Biasing the tubes is a piece of cake. There are meters on the top of the chassis and pots to adjust on the fly. It is super easy and you don't need to do it very often, maybe 2 months apart.
6. There is a bias range to adjust within. This tweaks the sound and can be very useful to balance your sound with your speaker.
Sum up, sound much better to my ears than any SS I have used, easy to use and as practical as SS amplifiers. In fact the Genus gas less hot than my previous SS class A power amp.
I notice you had some issues with the sound you heard, even on the demo system. I had the same issues. With my SS amps I had power, bass control and dynamics, but it didn't sound realistic. Also the treble quality was a touch strident, cold and flat. It also sounded thin in low to medium volumes, only sounding more balanced played really loud.
With the AC SETs the music has more body, more flesh to the notes, better texture and timbre and a bigger layering and soundstage. Also micro detail is easy to pick out and place in the soundstage. And it sounds equally good at low-high levels, so is much more balanced in real world use in my system. And the treble is silky smooth but highly transparent, female vocals and strings, piano are off the scale good. I actually like lots of type of music inc Reggae and EDM, and the AC SET eat this type of music as well.
Don't let anyone tell you SETs are flee powered either, the volume I can get on my 25W Genus is incredible,. It has really dynamics and bass control. Big bottle SETs are the best.
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