Prospects for Decent DCI 4K HDR REC2020 Projectors Well Under $60,000?

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I wonder how long we'll have to wait before 4K becomes the new 1080P and 4K projectors drop to the current 1080 prices? Will 16K be mainstream by then?

I've been researching decent 4K projectors for while now, as I'll soon need a means to show my 4K production work to clients on a big screen. However, the price premium is not congruent with the number of additional pixels.

At the moment, Sony is the only manufacturer out there offering 4K projectors with LASER light sources and HDR (10,000+ lumens) with deep enough blacks not to wash out to neutral grey on dark scenes.

So far, I've been able to watch 4K productions on a $5500 Eizo production monitor, but it's only 32" and not suitable for a group to view and take in the clarity of 4K and the amazing color gamut of REC2020 and 14+ stops of dynamic range. The monitor is still limited to 500 nits and 6-7 stops.

I've looked at the consumer projectors and they all seem to top out at 1800 lumens or less, with static contrast of 250:1 or less being touted as 100,000:1 with iris tricks. And the pictures are too dim to convey HDR images.

I'm hoping that prices come down while I'm still alive, like in the next 2 years. Ten years is more likely, but chances are I won't be around to benefit from it. Any prognostications from industry insiders as to when the REC2020-capable HDR 4K projectors will come down under $10K?

 

[R Johnson]

I'm not an insider, but aren't DCI projectors essentially only for commercial cinemas? If so, prices significantly less than $60,000 are most unlikely, especially if you want HDR.

Projectors appear to have limitations in doing HDR. How many commercial cinemas do HDR today?

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

It would seem that they are intended for commercial applications, but as a shooter who creates material in DCI 4K, replacing my 1080P projector with a DCI 4K one seems to be the necessary thing to do. 17:9 is a nice aspect ratio. It's wide enough, yet still tall enough.

There are, I'm told, a couple of theaters near me that have HDR capabilities.

One of the problems with DCI is the security features are numerous and tightly controlled. In fact, the DCI spec has features built into it to prevent camcorder copies! This is a major turn off, though the security stuff should not be a problem for original content that I'm creating.

My thinking is that perhaps when 8K and 16K projectors become more mainstream, the obsolete 4K projectors will be found on the used market for less than the price of a compact car. But that may be 4-5 years down the road. Would like to see it within my lifetime.

 

[amirm]

You don't need a DCI projector Mark as very few companies are licensed to make them (due to security features as you noted). What you want is a projector that is supports DCI's P3 color gamut. That way you can color grade your material and see what it looks like.

But yes, these are high-end projectors with high-end pricing to go with them. Best hope for a cheap projector of this capability is for Epson to produce them. I did not pay attention at CEDIA to see if they had a true 4K now instead of e-shift.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

I shoot 17:9 format, so to properly display it, I need a projector that supports the full 4096 pixel wide image, natively.
Everything out there for the consumer, letterboxes my footage.

I am also trying to find a way to display 14 f-stops of dynamic range on screen. The best that LCDs can do is 6-7 stops. I roughly estimated that I would need 100,000 lumens to do it right.

There is very little happening in the consumer market. It's all TV sets. My hope is for 16K to obsolete 4K and for those projectors to sell on the market for ten cents on the dollar.

 

[amirm]

No, there is a lot happening on the projector front. Lots of laser and 4K DLP with the latest chip from TI. JVC also upped the game with their true 4K projector. See: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...w-overview-and-pictures.753/page-2#post-23408

Here is the specs: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/brochure/dlars4500web.pdf

 

[amirm]

And there is no reality beyond 4K. NHK for the Olympics will push 8K likely but transition beyond 4K will be super tough as 4k is a hard sell as it is.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

No, there is a lot happening on the projector front. Lots of laser and 4K DLP with the latest chip from TI. JVC also upped the game with their true 4K projector. See: http://audiosciencereview.com/forum...w-overview-and-pictures.753/page-2#post-23408

Here is the specs: http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/brochure/dlars4500web.pdf

Thank you, amirm, now that is the kind of information I am looking for. But it's just one company and one product at the moment. I'll be more excited when 4-5 competing 4K models enter the market and mainstream 4K projection, thus bringing prices down.

I tend to agree that 4K seems already beyond what most people care about in terms of resolution. You need to be sitting up close to a wall sized 4K image to really appreciate its detail. It will be lost on 60" screens from normal livingroom viewing distances.

They're probably having trouble selling 4K because of the horrible compression. I look at the 4K TVs in Costco from time to time and the thing I notice right away is the blown highlights and the halos around edges, caused by excessive sharpening.

This is not necessary if shooting with high quality prime lenses. If one *must* use a zoom, then an Angenieux Optimo would be the way to go. No sharpening necessary.

I have a friend who sells high end hi-fi and home theater equipment in NYC and my 4K footage, displayed on my 1080P projector fooled him. He wanted to know what model 4K projector I was using. It wasn't! It was a 1080P model from a ten years ago. But the quality of my master footage was so much better than what he was used to seeing of UHD demo footage at the showroom, that it fooled him.

I reckon when I finally do manage to get 4K projection in here, I will really turn some heads with the quality of the images then.

I'm sitting 8' from a 12' screen, so presently, the dynamic range and color gamut is more of a limitation than resolution. Reds are particularly difficult for UHP bulbs to produce, as they don't put out much red light and tend toward blue. The colors on my 4K production monitor are quite a bit more dynamic. However, super saturated day-glo colors get crushed going to the projector and details flatten out there. I must cut the saturation to display on the projector without losing detail in fabric weaves and other textures in the scene.

I just wish the projector industry would hurry up and get some products on the market! I want to see a good 5000 lumen LASER projector for under $10K soon.

 

[MadFloyd]

I'd also like to see a 5000 lumen laser projector, even it was above 10k.

I find it very disappointing that the image quality of my Sim2 C3X 1080p has not been surpassed, even though it's been well over 6 years and the contrast of my projector isn't that high.

I'm guessing the economics of the market aren't such that projector manufacturers are putting in the effort to make a decent 4k projector.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

At this time, it seems that little effort is being put into making affordable 4K projectors.

There are 5000 lumen LASER projectors, but $60K and $35K are hardly affordable.

I pulled in just under $10K last year, repairing amplifiers and my wife is just a tad above minimum wage, so unless projectors show up cheap on the used market, it's not happening for us for a long time.