Question on using a digital oscilloscope for cartridge alignment

[montesquieu]

Impressed at the glowing reports from a friend on how he optimised his cartridge alignment using an oscilloscope, in a fit of enthusiasm, I went and bought one - a two-channel digital model off Amazon.

It's arrived, however it all looks rather complicated. My friend - who unfortunately lives a bit too far away to persuade to come round to show me hands-on - is a trained and qualified engineer, so it's probably all second nature to him. (Pity, as my preferred method of learning is monkey-see, monkey do ...).

Anyone else use one of these, or aware of any links to using one for stuff like azimuth adjustment?

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

Hey, I've found something that may be of use to you:

https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...ering-if-youre-using-oscilloscope-set-azimuth

If that doesn't work, here are some tips on how to set the azimuth with visual inspection - I've heard this method is quite efficient. Parts 2 and 3 in the upper right corner of the article. Let me know how it goes!

http://korfaudio.com/blog36

 

[montesquieu]

Awesome - just what I need.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I'm very glad to hear this! I hope it works for you. Be sure to post an update!

 

[microstrip]

Hey, I've found something that may be of use to you:

https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...ering-if-youre-using-oscilloscope-set-azimuth

If that doesn't work, here are some tips on how to set the azimuth with visual inspection - I've heard this method is quite efficient. Parts 2 and 3 in the upper right corner of the article. Let me know how it goes!

http://korfaudio.com/blog36

Well, we do not need to convert oscilloscope readings to dB to set azimuth ... And neither we have to buy an oscilloscope - get the free software Soundcard Scope https://zeitnitz.eu/scope_en and use a decent USB sound card. If you want to use dB it can show readings directly in dB.

 

[mtemur]

Well, we do not need to convert oscilloscope readings to dB to set azimuth ... And neither we have to buy an oscilloscope - get the free software Soundcard Scope https://zeitnitz.eu/scope_en and use a decent USB sound card. If you want to use dB it can show readings directly in dB.

I use that program as an oscilloscope but it doesn't show readings in dB only voltage and frequency. Can you share a screen shot?

 

[microstrip]

I use that program as an oscilloscope but it doesn't show readings in dB only voltage and frequency. Can you share a screen shot?

Just go to the frequency function and change units to dB.

 

[mtemur]

Just go to the frequency function and change units to dB.

The focus here is oscilloscope. So we agree that it doesn’t show dB in oscilloscope mode, just voltage and frequency. A conversion is required if you want to use oscilloscope readings in dB.

The frequency mode that you mention is not an effective way to measure azimuth and it shows dB as x-axis but it's not possible to get a useful reading. IMHO frequency mode can be used for speed measurement with a test disc.

 

[microstrip]

The focus here is oscilloscope. So we agree that it doesn’t show dB in oscilloscope mode, just voltage and frequency. A conversion is required if you want to use oscilloscope readings in dB.

The frequency mode that you mention is not an effective way to measure azimuth and it shows dB as x-axis but it's not possible to get a useful reading. IMHO frequency mode can be used for speed measurement with a test disc.

The frequency mode shows amplitude in dB as an Y-axis and frequency as a X-axis. We can use it to measure azimuth switching the input 1 and 2 during the process. To get a useful reading we have to override the auto scaling and the accuracy depends on the scales we set manually. In fact it works as RMS voltmeter with dB readout - I have classical instruments that I use for tape set up that have such readings.

But as you refer, I prefer to set the azimuth using the oscilloscope in linear mode - BTW, I am assuming we are addressing the crosstalk residuals method.

 

[mtemur]

But as you refer, I prefer to set the azimuth using the oscilloscope in linear mode - BTW, I am assuming we are addressing the crosstalk residuals method.

X-Y plotter is also very useful in this regard, crosstalk tracks on test LPs. I prefer Analogmagik with Analogue Productions test LP over this program.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Wouldn't purchasing AnalogMagik be better to set up all parameters for your cartridge ?

I ask this question as I have recently bought the ART USB Phono Plus Sound Card PC Interface unit (recommended by AnalogMagik) and a Lenovo 5i 14" ideapad laptop (also recommended by AnalogMagik) and will soon buy the V2 of AnalogMagik to set up my cartridge(s) and am now wondering if it will be a worthwhile financial investment (i.e. approx. £1,500 for all three components) to make sure my cartridge(s) are set up and operating correctly to get the best sound possible (with minimum record surface noise etc.) and with minimum record and stylus ware ?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Measuring azimuth with oscilloscope has many pitfalls. Exsample a cartridge requires a low-impedance input, an oscilloscope usually has 1 megaohm /25pf, which increases the stray signal and becomes very imprecise. better you take a test lp with crosstalkL-R/R-L and optimize to the smallest value.
Picture must look like that crosstalk left chanel to right chanel


Use a Mono signal L/R shifted over each other, the channels have a very good synchronization.


sounds very good, please don't make rocket science out of it. if you measure a lot, you measure a lot of crap

 

[Shuggie]

Wouldn't purchasing AnalogMagik be better to set up all parameters for your cartridge ?

I ask this question as I have recently bought the ART USB Phono Plus Sound Card PC Interface unit (recommended by AnalogMagik) and a Lenovo 5i 14" ideapad laptop (also recommended by AnalogMagik) and will soon buy the V2 of AnalogMagik to set up my cartridge(s) and am now wondering if it will be a worthwhile financial investment (i.e. approx. £1,500 for all three components) to make sure my cartridge(s) are set up and operating correctly to get the best sound possible (with minimum record surface noise etc.) and with minimum record and stylus ware ?

Yes

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Yes

Thank you 'Shuggie' for your positive reply.

Makes the quite expensive investment I am making for setting up my cartridge(s) a bit easier to swallow and contend with (especially if it will also help towards giving me the best vinyl playback I can achieve with my current TT system !)

 

[Shuggie]

Thank you 'Shuggie' for your positive reply.

Makes the quite expensive investment I am making for setting up my cartridge(s) a bit easier to swallow and contend with (especially if it will also help towards giving me the best vinyl playback I can achieve with my current TT system !)

Analog Magik is a complex tool that takes quite some time to understand, and to use for best overall effect. At first it's daunting. Almost all parameters are interlinked, so be prepared for a great deal of toing, froing, and repetition. Enjoy the journey - after some weeks it does all become very logical and straightforward; and then you will then have a deep understanding of what matters with cartridge setup, and how to get closest to an ideal setup.

Apart from the obvious initial precautions of aligning the cartridge to a chosen geometry and setting more or less level in all directions, my top tip with Analog Magik is to start with the VTF function, since that determines correct alignment of the cartridge coils in the generator, and that impacts on most of the other measurement functions. Once VTF is set, VTA, azimuth, anti-skate etc follow logically.

Incidentally, every Phasemation cartridge that I've ever set up using Analog Magik has yielded close to optimal results when set up simply in accordance with the maker's recommendations. I've yet to see such consistent manufacturing quality from any other cartridge maker.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Analog Magik is a complex tool that takes quite some time to understand, and to use for best overall effect. At first it's daunting. Almost all parameters are interlinked, so be prepared for a great deal of toing, froing, and repetition. Enjoy the journey - after some weeks it does all become very logical and straightforward; and then you will then have a deep understanding of what matters with cartridge setup, and how to get closest to an ideal setup.

Apart from the obvious initial precautions of aligning the cartridge to a chosen geometry and setting more or less level in all directions, my top tip with Analog Magik is to start with the VTF function, since that determines correct alignment of the cartridge coils in the generator, and that impacts on most of the other measurement functions. Once VTF is set, VTA, azimuth, anti-skate etc follow logically.

Incidentally, every Phasemation cartridge that I've ever set up using Analog Magik has yielded close to optimal results when set up simply in accordance with the maker's recommendations. I've yet to see such consistent manufacturing quality from any other cartridge maker.

Thank you 'Shuggie' for your reply post and very useful information on the AnalogMagik. Very much appreciated.

Would you say the V2 version is worth the extra cost (approx. £350 in the UK / approx. US$500) to the V1 version ?

 

[Shuggie]

Thank you 'Shuggie' for your reply post and very useful information on the AnalogMagik. Very much appreciated.

Would you say the V2 version is worth the extra cost (approx. £350 in the UK / approx. US$500) to the V1 version ?

I don't know - I only have the original Analog Magik

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Just found out from a UK Dealer for AnalogMagik that they only have the V1 is in stock from the UK Distributor for £650 and the V2 doesn't have a delivery time (assume it is not in stock anywhere in the UK at the moment) and will cost £1,100.

What is interesting is the V1 to V2 upgrade (also not in stock anywhere in the UK at the moment) will cost £250 i.e. buying the V1 and then the V2 upgrade later is cheaper than buying the V2 first ! lol

Does anybody have any experience of upgrading from V1 to V2 with any issues etc. ?

Reason I am asking this question is, I am thinking to get the V1 now which I should receive some time next week so I can check my cartridge set-up ASAP and order the V2 upgrade at the same time (with maybe waiting for 4+ weeks ????) or order the V2 and maybe also have to wait 4+ weeks ???? for it to arrive ?

 

[tony22]

I upgraded from V1 to V2 with no issues whatsoever. For me it was worth it, as it now includes measurements for Zenith optimization, among other things.

 

[Walnut Horns]

If any expert users of AnalogMagik in the NY tri-state area wouldn’t mind me observing a cartridge install, I’d appreciate it. I really want to become more proficient (and efficient) with using my V1 kit. Please let me know. Thanks.