Re-imagining "Class A" Amplification

[gleeds]

Phil, I thank you for taking the time to present your well reasoned thinking based upon your experience. I'll take you up on that invite one of these days

 

[viola]

Understand that I don't have only Absolare amps and have plenty of experience with tube and solid state amp topologies over more than 50 years in hifi. I've never gravitated to "warmish" amplification, tube or solid state, nor do I think amplifiers should be designed to "sound like an SE tube amplifier..." An amplifier should be designed to control a speaker yielding a musically-convincing sound, regardless of the amplifying device and topology chosen. I didn't write that the WML is insufficiently "warm," nor that it sounded cold, sterile or any of the other tube v. transistor divides. On the Fyne F1-12, it just stopped short of full tonal authenticity and transparency. But on Fyne the amp has to drive a crossover. It might perform and sound differently driving a crossoverless Zu.

The Absolare Altius monoblocks with Elrog 845s do not have the sound people often associate with traditional SET. On the contrary they are among the most objective amps I've ever heard and are explosively dynamic, which possibly might be somewhat less so with other 845 glass substituted. I don''t know what the Absolare loses in its two lesser versions, as I haven't heard those with Elrog installed. The Nagra Classic Amp is similarly open and objective in stereo, though its soundstaging presents with a little less spatial scale. That same amp installed as a bridged pair was clearly not as convincing. We'll see about the Gryphon, though great progress with burn-in was reported by another listener yesterday. Whatever it turns out to be, "warm" was not what we heard at installation.

The cables issue in the system referenced is a distraction, since with no change of cables some other amps have delivered a more complete sound than the WML, albeit other, less essential characteristics were sometimes lacking. Cables in a hifi system are influential and problematic. I think of cables -- all of them -- as "fixed parametric equalizers" wherein the struggle is to find the most neutral and transparent. There is very little correlation between price and neutrality in cables, with some of the worst offenders I've heard being among the most expensive, and many cheapies are detrimental too. At what immodest level does an interconnect from an MSB Reference DAC have to be to be considered appropriate? I don't have an immodesty-modesty scale to answer that. But when the system context for power amps auditioned remains a constant, we can recognize clear differences between them, in the context of the given system. If every amp requires cable optimization specific to it for its maker to consider the audition legitimate, practical comparisons over time become impractical.

The WML amp is the result of a vision-driven, clever design made so for very good practical reasons. It presents a musically-credible voice in the ~$30,000 power amp category but it has a voice nevertheless. While I did not hear the WML as convincing in its appeal as other commentary here suggests, I fully accept that the amp should be considered in its price bracket and that some people might consider what I find missing to be a plus in a different system.

Next time you visit the Fyne owner, Gary, I'm just 15 minutes further.

Phil

I would beg to differ on the assertion that the cable issue is a distraction. A system cannot sound better than what flows from its weakest link. If that link is cables, then some components may sound better with lower quality cables even though they would not sound as good with higher quality cables. If that link is power, for example, then components with better power supplies may sound better than those that assumed clean power feeding the component and instead focused more on input / driver / amplification stage components and circuitry such as maintaining the shortest possible signal path. As another example outside of audio, evaluating 3 high-performance cars that are all fed with regular fuel will not give you much of a meaningful conclusion other than one car might perform better with low-octane fuel versus others. The more appropriate question is which car performs best when it is given high-octane fuel.

I think it would make a lot of sense for you to take Gary up on his offer to let you do the comparison with high-quality cables such as the Westminster Lab cables. I cannot speak for the Quest, as I do not have it in my system. I use the Tidal Audio Presencio preamp, which is a highly revealing preamp, to drive the WL Rei monoblocks with very high-quality Stealth Indra interconnects. My power is very clean and dead quiet, as it is balanced through a hard-wired 250+ pound Topaz EI-style transformer with an isolated technical ground. Speakers are Tidal Contriva G2s. In this setup, with excellent components, power and cables, the Rei is a magical performer.

Of course, I also appreciate that different people are attracted to different things, so even with an excellent set-up, some people may simply prefer one sound reproduction over another. In my case, I absolutely love what I am hearing (and which I previously described in this thread) from the Reis.

 

[213Cobra]

I would beg to differ on the assertion that the cable issue is a distraction. A system cannot sound better than what flows from its weakest link. If that link is cables, then some components may sound better with lower quality cables even though they would not sound as good with higher quality cables. If that link is power, for example, then components with better power supplies may sound better than those that assumed clean power feeding the component and instead focused more on input / driver / amplification stage components and circuitry such as maintaining the shortest possible signal path. As another example outside of audio, evaluating 3 high-performance cars that are all fed with regular fuel will not give you much of a meaningful conclusion other than one car might perform better with low-octane fuel versus others. The more appropriate question is which car performs best when it is given high-octane fuel.

I think it would make a lot of sense for you to take Gary up on his offer to let you do the comparison with high-quality cables such as the Westminster Lab cables. I cannot speak for the Quest, as I do not have it in my system. I use the Tidal Audio Presencio preamp, which is a highly revealing preamp, to drive the WL Rei monoblocks with very high-quality Stealth Indra interconnects. My power is very clean and dead quiet, as it is balanced through a hard-wired 250+ pound Topaz EI-style transformer with an isolated technical ground. Speakers are Tidal Contriva G2s. In this setup, with excellent components, power and cables, the Rei is a magical performer.

Of course, I also appreciate that different people are attracted to different things, so even with an excellent set-up, some people may simply prefer one sound reproduction over another. In my case, I absolutely love what I am hearing (and which I previously described in this thread) from the Reis.

First, understand that I am not the person auditioning these amps for possible purchase. I'm a requested 2nd/3rd/4th opinion.

I have not said that cables could not make a difference, only that for someone auditioning many amps, the system context is best kept consistent, and that includes a cable loom the buyer already knows. Once a decision is made that a given amp wins its slot in the system, there is further opportunity for cable optimization if warranted, but now is not the time to focus on that. IF the proposition were to be: "Please audition my amps with my cables and my proprietary MSB cables..." that's different. But then the baseline for comparing other contenders is undermined.

You may hear the Rei as a "magical performer" in your system, but we didn't in the owner's system. Note that no brands have been mentioned about the potential buyer's cable loom so you don't know what that context is. It's not bell wire. Power is via a substantial Torus isolation xformer ample for the system, with voltage regulation included. But in our audition, amp power is from the wall. Power is not the problem. The linestage is the highly-revealing Music First TVC, and the potential buyer has the option of driving amps directly from his MSB Ref DAC.

You enjoy your pair of Rei. Very good for you. This group of listeners I referred to was less enamored for reasons stated, but we recognize that in the context of its class of amplification, the WML is certainly quite credible.

Phil

 

[DSG Rob]

I just redid a 23x15x11 room in my home with plans of installing a stereo.

Although I've owned a pair of AudioNec Evo2s for a few years now, I feel like I'm finally hearing what they're capable of.

Running REIs monos direct into a Lampizator Horizon (less than a weekd old). Taiko Extreme handling the transport duties. Dedicated lines on their own panel, passive conditioning, all on a Topaz iso.

Synergy is everything. The tubed Horizon DAC/REI combo has tonality and resolution in spades. It would be my pleasure to host anyone who wants to hear it for themselves, and of course bring your favorite tube amp as well.

 

[bonzo75]

I just redid a 23x15x11 room in my home with plans of installing a stereo.

Although I've owned a pair of AudioNec Evo2s for a few years now, I feel like I'm finally hearing what they're capable of.

Running REIs monos direct into a Lampizator Horizon (less than a weekd old). Taiko Extreme handling the transport duties. Dedicated lines on their own panel, passive conditioning, all on a Topaz iso.

Synergy is everything. The tubed Horizon DAC/REI combo has tonality and resolution in spades. It would be my pleasure to host anyone who wants to hear it for themselves, and of course bring your favorite tube amp as well.

View attachment 103263

this is going to be an excellent system. Especially for small to medium rooms, it is difficult to better this speaker. It is like an electrostat but without the drawbacks of having to be stuck in a sweet spot and has better bass, music is just there with a lot of transparency. It also runs on 20ish watt SETs

 

[Scott Naylor]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisaji6a-audionec-evo-2-speakers-full-range

 

[DSG Rob]

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisaji6a-audionec-evo-2-speakers-full-range

Dealer demos, selling for a song. Won't see this deal anytime soon

I had a customer come over this past Saturday to hear the REI/Horizon combo on the AudioNec Evo2s. He was blown away. He immediately placed an order for an Horizon.

Whether on the 92db AudioNecs, or the 98db Tobian 12FH's, the Westminster REI's sound sublime.

 

[LampiNA]

Happy Friday fellow WBF'ers!

As we spend the weekend readying ourselves for our upcoming presentations at the 2023 Florida Audio Expo next week, I wanted to take a moment to invite you all to visit with us in our exhibition Room 518 where we will be demonstrating the Westminster Labs electronics alongside some other fabulous accompanying equipment.

Specifically, we were be debuting the Westminster Labs REI mono amplifiers along with the matching Quest preamplifier in what will only be the second time these pieces have been presented at domestic shows. For those of you who have been watching, our first presentation at Capital AudioFest 2022 was met with very high acclaim and several Best of Show nominations.

In addition to the Westminter amplification, we will be featuring a LampizatOr Horizon DAC and Gulfstream server and making the World Debut of the brand new Tobian Soundsystems 12SE horn speakers from Switzerland. Cabling will be the fantastic Final Touch Audio cables which are handbuilt in Serbia and imported by us (Destination Sound). Additionally, shelving will be provided by Critical Mass Systems, ensuring these fabulous products are able to perform to their potential.







We look forward to seeing you there!

FredA.

 

[gleeds]

I was on my way to Florida for the show and a stomach flu had other ideas. Fred and Rob have been kind enough to keep me posted on how much fun they are having and send photos from the event. And yes, that is Mike Fremer who stayed for about 45 minutes enjoying the music on Friday even though there was no analog to be found in the room. Lukaz came from Poland to make sure his beauty was singing and take a break from the cold Poland winter

The system includes:
Lampizator Horizon (dig that red top plate!)
Lampizator Gulfstream Music Server
Westminster Lab Rei monoblock amplifiers
Westminster Lab Quest balanced preamplifier
Tobian Sound 12-Signature horns
Critical Mass Systems rack

 

[lscangus]

Hello Everyone! We are also in the North Germany Hifi Days with Luxman, LUMIN, DS Audio and Wilson Benesch. Some pictures to share below.

 

[gleeds]

Angus, that's a beautiful room Krey put together! Please pass on my compliments.

 

[CDC77]

I just redid a 23x15x11 room in my home with plans of installing a stereo.

Although I've owned a pair of AudioNec Evo2s for a few years now, I feel like I'm finally hearing what they're capable of.

Running REIs monos direct into a Lampizator Horizon (less than a weekd old). Taiko Extreme handling the transport duties. Dedicated lines on their own panel, passive conditioning, all on a Topaz iso.

Synergy is everything. The tubed Horizon DAC/REI combo has tonality and resolution in spades. It would be my pleasure to host anyone who wants to hear it for themselves, and of course bring your favorite tube amp as well.

View attachment 103263

Agree 100%. The Horizon/Rei combo is awesome.

 

[gleeds]

Thanks to my friend and colleague Fred Crane of Prana Distribution, along with his partners at Falken Ohr rack company in Germany they created custom amp stands for Westminster Reis. For owners that want to locate their Westminster monoblock amplifiers on the floor vs. a single rack shelf, besides amazing sound, these substantial stands certainly give the minimalist Reis an uncharacteristically muscular posture.

 

[Fred Crane]

Thanks to my friend and colleague Fred Crane of Prana Distribution, along with his partners at Falken Ohr rack company in Germany they created custom amp stands for Westminster Reis. For owners that want to locate their Westminster monoblock amplifiers on the floor vs. a single rack shelf, besides amazing sound, these substantial stands certainly give the minimalist Reis an uncharacteristically muscular posture.

View attachment 104716

My pleasure Gary! The Falken'Ohr stands bring out the best in whatever resides upon them. In the case of the REI's, the Falken'Ohr stands project the inner gestalt of the Westminster amps with a size befitting of their sound.

 

[gleeds]

Hi All, Just letting folks know who will be at Axpona that we will be featuring WestminsterLab Electronic in two rooms.

Room #1506
Von Schweikert Audio Endeavor SE with Critical Mass footers
Westminster Rei monoblocks (custom Falken Ohr amplifier platform)
WestminsterLab Quest Balanced preamplifier
WestminsterLab and MasterBuilt Cables
Lampizator Horizon
Small Green Computer i9 server with Sonore Ultra Rendu

Room# 731
Raihdo TD 2.2's or TD 3.2's depending upon the room
WestminsterLab Rei monoblocks (with custom Falken Ohr)
WestminsterLab Quest balanced preamplifier
Aurender N30SA server
Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC 3 and clock
A mixture of WestminsterLab Ultra and Shunyata Omega cables

Special event Saturday afternoon 5:30 pm -6:30 pm Room #1506
Meet Angus Leung and ask questions about WestminsteLab technology.
At this time a bridged set of Rei amplifiers (4) producing 400 Class A watts in 8 ohms and that double down to 800 watts at 4ohms will be making their world premiere!

 

[Pokey77]

Hi All, Just letting folks know who will be at Axpona that we will be featuring WestminsterLab Electronic in two rooms.


View attachment 107341

Gary, was very excited to read that you will also be at THE Show Newport Beach and look forward to updates on that as well. Regards

 

[gleeds]

Thanks so much! Yes, we will also have two rooms at The Show in June with two very different systems powered by Westminster electronics. More to follow after Axpona wraps.

 

[Pokey77]

Thanks so much! Yes, we will also have two rooms at The Show in June with two very different systems powered by Westminster electronics. More to follow after Axpona wraps.

I will see you there.

 

[CDC77]

I was honored this evening to welcome the Westminster inventor, Mr. Angus Leung, and Gary Leeds, who’s become a good friend, to our home in Chicago. They offered to stop by on their way to Axpona to personally tweak my system, get the speakers positioned just right, etc. What great guys! What a fun hobby. And yes, we sound even better than we did before they arrived!

 

[Fred Crane]

Have fun gents!!