Recommend room treatments for the mini room I call "my dedicated listening room"

[DaveyF]

My little dedicated room is appx 11' X 10' with a vault ceiling going to 13'.
I currently have the speakers into the room about 1/3rd in and firing towards the high
part of the vault. After much discussion with a'phile friends and MUCH head shaking,
we all believe that some room treatment may be called for. I currently have two upright
LP cases in the corners behind the speakers,to act as absorption. Speakers are the SF GH'S
which are working well in this space... BUT could they be working better with some acoustic
aids in the room.
The basic construction is typical S.Calif build... i.e. Wood Frame and dryrock sheeting.Floors are
carpet over concrete slab.
One of my a'phile friends tells me it is a lost cause
I suspect he's right but I sure hope not..

 

[Bruce B]

The 2 LP cases are not doing much and would be better on the back wall behind you. You will need need bass traps, something like ASC tube traps, in all 4 corners. You need either diffusion or absorption at your first reflection points on the side wall. This should get you started.

 

[kareface]

I really don't trust the tube traps. I'm sure they work great as traditional absorbers, but I doubt they work as advertised. I really wish they could provide some data on the traps with an without a sealed cavity, because I don't believe they are any more effective than a normal lump of fiberglass.

Anyways, that aside, I'm not the biggest fan of diffusers at the first reflection point unless over 60% of your dampening will be done with diffusion. What type of vaulted ceiling do you have? Depending on what it is you'll have to be really aggressive with dampening above the listening area. With taller ceilings it's not a terrible idea to go a little heavy on the absorption. Flutter echo is more noticeable in spaces like that. If you have a decent amount of space behind the listening position, 4-7 diffusers are nice. Get some dampening at the front wall behind the speakers to help reduce room reflections. Some thin panels at the first reflection points, if you have tall ceiling diffusers at the first reflection on the ceiling can work out nicely.

 

[Ethan Winer]

we all believe that some room treatment may be called for.

I'm sure that's true. Start here for a brief introduction to what's needed: Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

 

[Nyal Mellor]

My little dedicated room is appx 11' X 10' with a vault ceiling going to 13'.
I currently have the speakers into the room about 1/3rd in and firing towards the high
part of the vault. After much discussion with a'phile friends and MUCH head shaking,
we all believe that some room treatment may be called for. I currently have two upright
LP cases in the corners behind the speakers,to act as absorption. Speakers are the SF GH'S
which are working well in this space... BUT could they be working better with some acoustic
aids in the room.
The basic construction is typical S.Calif build... i.e. Wood Frame and dryrock sheeting.Floors are
carpet over concrete slab.
One of my a'phile friends tells me it is a lost cause
I suspect he's right but I sure hope not..

First question I always ask is: 'what sound quality problems do you have or to put it another way what are you trying to improve?'

Acoustic treatment has many different forms and its usage is dependent on which problems you are trying to fix...

 

[DaveyF]

Thanks for the replies so far. Nyal, I would like to see if I can get even more air and width/depth portrayal. Also, I would like if possible, to firm up the bottom end. ( Although I'm not sure that the GH's can produce more bass in this room or that I would want it anyway). Maybe, a more defined bass would be good.
Unfortunately, I do not have the option of moving the LP cases as I have to store appx. 3000+ Lp's in this room as well
So, the basic configuration of the equipment has to stay in its current location. It seems that the speakers firing off the slightly longer wall and into the high part of the vault is best. After a LOT of experimentation. this set-up seems to work optimally. Naturally, I have to listen essentially in the near-field.
( which I like anyway as it tends to give one a more intimate perspective )

 

[Jaguar]

I think the effectiveness of Tube Traps is somewhat well established. It would be good if you can measure the room with a microphone kit or have someone over who's ears are keen enough to point you in the right direction. GIK Corner Traps are the least expensive I've found and their measured results show they're quite effective.

 

[DaveyF]

Hi fork, I have had many 'philes in this room To a man ( well actually a couple of women also, whose hearing is IMHO better than mine or my other male 'phile friends), we have all felt that while the room is far from ideal, it has potential and really isn't too bad as-is. As it now stands, I'm getting a very good overall sound, nothing really falls apart and the imaging is good considering how small the room is. Nonetheless, improvement is hopefully always possible.
I'm not concerned about being able to determine whether a treatment works or not, but more about the specific types of treatment that can work given my very limited space.
Also, my orientation of the room has to basically remain as-is.
So, I wander if a specific type of tube trap or aurelex panel or ? would be preferable given these room limitations.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I wander if a specific type of tube trap or aurelex panel or ? would be preferable given these room limitations.

Given the immoveable placements of your records etc, you might consider absorber panels and bass traps mounted on stands. One example is shown below. Then you can put them in the best places acoustically, and move them out of the way when needed.

--Ethan

 

[cjfrbw]

Your room sounds almost exactly like my listening room in my second place in Santa Cruz. However, my equipment is "leftovers" and a few additional items that are nothing as nice as your wonderful system.

My system is designed for low to moderate listening levels only, check out thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-lot-of-money-to-get-audio-satisfaction/page3

at post #25.

I have the same general dimensions to the room. I think that having a trapezoidial cross section is really a bonus, and placing the speakers against the short wall is the way to go. I have recently moved my chuffer-wheezer second subwoofer into this system (Klipsch Kg, rated only to 38Hz) and use the closet as a kind of horn loaded port, adjusting the bass (upper bass?) by opening and closing the closet door. I have also swapped out the main amplifier with a Hogan 26/300b amplifier and took the April Sound 300b back home to use as a surround amp.

I think this kind of room is limiting, but the sound I am getting so far is more than excellent. I have trouble breaking away and and am always curious to hear what comes next. It can send chills down my spine at times. That surprises me since I listen to MP3 from computer or CD's, and come from a home system that is an expensive vinyl rig.

I have no treatments, but I think this kind of trapezoid small room can and is doing very well sonically. I don't think a rectangle or square would do nearly as well. So I think the trapezoid is the key to this space having good potential at its small size.

I am getting broad, deep imaging and classical music, though not loud, is a charm with this getup.

The system has the option of playing in either multi channel surround or two channel with subwoofer, and sounds great either way, it really surprises me.

I would think you could get much better results with your great stuff. The main thing is that I think the kind of room you describe has reasonable potential, even for a high performance system.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Thanks for the replies so far. Nyal, I would like to see if I can get even more air and width/depth portrayal. Also, I would like if possible, to firm up the bottom end.

Let's handle these separately, in this post I will cover the air / width / depth piece.

First of all let me just reproduce some material from my website to give you some background as to the effect of reflections on perceived sound quality.

Strong early reflections

When we listen to music in a small room what we hear is a combination of the direct sound from the speaker and the multiplicity of reflections from the surfaces of our room. As Benade (From Instrument to Ear in a Room, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, 1985) states:

"The auditory system combines the information contained a set of reduplicated sound sequences (i.e. the direct sound and its reflections) and hears them as if they were a single entity. The singly perceived composite entity represents the accumulated information about the acoustical features (tone color, articulation, etc) shared by the set of signals. It is heard as though all the later arrivals were piled upon the first one without any delay"


In small rooms the contribution of reflections to the sound we hear can be as much as an 60%. What we hear from a sound quality perspective in a small room is therefore determined as much by the reflected sound as the direct sound. Reflected sounds can cause many psychoacoustic cues such as tonal coloration, image spreading and spaciousness. Reducing the level of reflections is an attempt to increase the proportion of directed sound and reduce the impact of reflections on sound quality. To further complicate things there are some reflections that can be 'good' from a psychoacoustic perspective. These 'good' reflections, arriving from the left and right side walls, can act to increase the perceived spaciousness in the sound stage which can be attractive to some listeners. Other reflections, arriving from the back wall, ceiling and floor do not have any beneficial effects. These reflections are typically targeted for absorption. This leaves a choice on how to treat the 'good' lateral reflection from the sidewalls; this will be determined to some extent by the personal preference of the listener. Those who like pin point imaging will prefer absorptive sidewalls, at the expense of sound stage width and the perceived spaciousness of the sound stage. Those that like the opposite will prefer reflective sidewalls. Then there are combination absorptive / diffusive products which absorb some of the incident sound whilst diffusing some back into the room. This sidewall treatment will suit those who go for a more of a balance between focus and envelopment.

Now if you are saying that the soundstage focus is good but you want more envelopment (spaciousness) you should be: leaving the sidewalls reflective, treating all other reflection points with absorption and looking at listener position. In particular I have always found it difficult to get good spaciousness with a couch pushed right up against the back wall (not sure where you are sitting). If you have ability to move the couch out a few ft, and then treat the back wall with absorption, you should get an improvement.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

And in terms of the bass; adding absorption through thick (think 4"+ fiberglass absorbers) like the MondoTraps will help firm up perceived bass. I know Ethan will slightly disagree with me but in a room as small as yours and lacking positional flexibilty in terms of where you can put the speakers and listeners, you may benefit from adding room correction below 300Hz through use of a parametric EQ or a Meridian, TacT or DEQX box (those three being ones that I recommend).

 

[Ethan Winer]

you may benefit from adding room correction below 300Hz

LOL, change that to 100 Hz and I'll agree completely.

--Ethan

 

[Nyal Mellor]

LOL, change that to 100 Hz and I'll agree completely.

--Ethan

Agree - I very rarely use EQ above 100Hz - mainly for the highly audible room modes (particularly 2nd length and width modes peaking in center of room) below 100Hz. And I used 300Hz to try and say - 'don't use EQ above 300Hz, cause it ain't room correction no more, it's speaker correction'

 

[DaveyF]

Ethan, I think that your suggestion as to moveable traps is a very good idea. Any thoughts as to how to treat the rear wall as I have to sit right up against it. At this seated point, the ceiling is at a 13' height.
I have LP storage on this wall as well as equipment. Unfortunately, both cannot be moved either.

 

[Ethan Winer]

The most important place to treat on a rear wall is directly behind your head. That's the worst place to sit! If you measured the response at your ears you'd have a heart attack.

You can use either absorption or diffusion. Good diffusors are more complicated and thus more expensive than good absorbers, whether you buy commercial products or make them yourself. The usual treatment there is absorption. Again, using panels on stands centered vertically at ear height makes a lot of sense.

--Ethan

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Ethan, I think that your suggestion as to moveable traps is a very good idea. Any thoughts as to how to treat the rear wall as I have to sit right up against it. At this seated point, the ceiling is at a 13' height.
I have LP storage on this wall as well as equipment. Unfortunately, both cannot be moved either.

If you HAVE to sit on the back wall then you want 3" minimum fiberglass right behind your head. Go for 2 24"x48" panels centered at ear height as Ethan said. Depending on the height and type of seating you may need less (e.g. if you have a nice fabric couch you don't have to treat below the level of the headrest). Diffusion won't be any good that close.

 

[DaveyF]

Ethan, I am now considering your line of traps, which of the products would you suggest for the wall behind my speakers that includes the LP storage? What do you think would be the minimum number of traps I can get away with for the whole treatment?

 

[Ethan Winer]

The most appropriate corner bass traps for a room that size are probably our MondoTraps on stands. That's what's shown in the photo I posted above. I suggest four as a minimum for a small room that's close to cube shaped. You'll also benefit from mid/high frequency absorbers at the side-wall reflection points. A pair of RFZ Panels, also on stands, would be ideal. We also have less expensive options for reflections, such as MicroTraps. If you can send a photo or two by email through our Contact page, Jim or I can be more specific in a recommendation. Best is two "distant" photos showing as much of the room as possible in each shot, as explained on that web page

--Ethan

 

[DaveyF]

Ethan, Thanks. I will see if I can e.mail you some pics of my room... it's going to be a challenge though.