Record Cleaning and Realistic Expectations

[jim94025]

I recently purchased some Audio Intelligent solution #15 enzymatic pre clean to use with my VPI 16.5 prior to my usual cleaning with Disc Doctor cleaning solution followed by 3 distilled water rinses. I picked a record that had come from a collection in a particularly moldy room.The record was in excellent condition other than faint white splotchy marks all over that I assumed were mold. I pretreated with AI #15 for 5 min per AI’s instructions. After further cleaning and drying, the record was cleaner, but the splotches remained. Did I do something wrong? Could the splotches be something else?

A second record had inner runout marks I assumed were from the old plastic inner sleeve, but after going thru the same process, these marks did not clean up as well...Hmmm?

Would an US RCM like a Degritter do a better job? Other thoughts?

Please see the pics below.

 

[Kingrex]

There is dirty and there is damaged.
How do they play?

Have you read Timas DIY record cleaning thread. Very long. A few divergent sections. Good info on chemicals to use and how to use them.

 

[tima]

The record was in excellent condition other than faint white splotchy marks all over that I assumed were mold.

Rex has the right question: how does it sound?

I have seen markings like what are shown in your photos. Looking at those and from my experience with Audio Intelligent No. 15 and others of their enzyme cleaners, those marks may not be removable. I could be off base here -- speculation on my part. Leaving the enzyme solution on the record for longer than the product recommendation may help.

Check this discussion on cleaning moldy records, which involves hand and ultrasonic cleaning.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-cleaning-explained.36690/page-14#post-987305

 

[jim94025]

Rex has the right question: how does it sound?

I have seen markings like what are shown in your photos. Looking at those and from my experience with Audio Intelligent No. 15 and others of their enzyme cleaners, those marks may not be removable. I could be off base here -- speculation on my part. Leaving the enzyme solution on the record for longer than the product recommendation may help.

Check this discussion on cleaning moldy records, which involves hand and ultrasonic cleaning.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-cleaning-explained.36690/page-14#post-987305

I agree...that IS the question and I will get to it this weekend. That said, I was just as curious to see how often this kind of mold is resistant to removal and it seems that it's not uncommon.

 

[jim94025]

What about the second picture of the record with the run out groove markings? Plastic residual from inner sleeve and moist environment?

 

[tima]

What about the second picture of the record with the run out groove markings? Plastic residual from inner sleeve and moist environment?

Possibly. It is difficult to say the cause of those markings or even what they are. If you know someone (or a record store) that has an ultrasonic cleaner I'd give that a try.

I will also suggest to try different chemistry with your VPI. Check Neil Antin's book for examples.
Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press. Try starting at p. 144. Neil discusses using Alconox Liquinox as a pre-cleaner followed by cleaning with Tergitol 15-S-9 with a vacuum-RCM.


In your initial post you asked if a machine like the Degritter would do a better job cleaning your examples than an enzyme based vacuum machine cleaning. It is tough to speak decisvely to the two examples based only on the photos.

But I will say this: I own a Loricraft PRC-3 vacuum machine and used it for ~5 years with a variety of cleaning solutions including Audio Intelligent. Subsequently I built two ultrasonic systems and currently have what some regard as a SOTA cleaning system -- see my DIY thread. Imo, ultrasonic cleaning with the right chemistry is easily superior to vacuum cleaning for through-put and time involved, convenience and tidiness.

I believe that on average or generally one can get a record clean with either method and today I choose the ultrasonic approach. The question I always had with the horisontal vacuum approach was when do I stop cleaning -- if I do another cycle will I get an incremental improvement? With my ultrasonic setup, if I cannot get the record clean in a maximum of two cycles (usually only one is needed) then I know that further cleaning will not help and the record is probably damaged in some way.

 

[jim94025]

Possibly. It is difficult to say the cause of those markings or even what they are. If you know someone (or a record store) that has an ultrasonic cleaner I'd give that a try.

I will also suggest to try different chemistry with your VPI. Check Neil Antin's book for examples.
Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition - The Vinyl Press. Try starting at p. 144. Neil discusses using Alconox Liquinox as a pre-cleaner followed by cleaning with Tergitol 15-S-9 with a vacuum-RCM.


In your initial post you asked if a machine like the Degritter would do a better job cleaning your examples than an enzyme based vacuum machine cleaning. It is tough to speak decisvely to the two examples based only on the photos.

But I will say this: I own a Loricraft PRC-3 vacuum machine and used it for ~5 years with a variety of cleaning solutions including Audio Intelligent. Subsequently I built two ultrasonic systems and currently have what some regard as a SOTA cleaning system -- see my DIY thread. Imo, ultrasonic cleaning with the right chemistry is easily superior to vacuum cleaning for through-put and time involved, convenience and tidiness.

I believe that on average or generally one can get a record clean with either method and today I choose the ultrasonic approach. The question I always had with the horisontal vacuum approach was when do I stop cleaning -- if I do another cycle will I get an incremental improvement? With my ultrasonic setup, if I cannot get the record clean in a maximum of two cycles (usually only one is needed) then I know that further cleaning will not help and the record is probably damaged in some way.

Excellent reply. Thank you.

 

[Neil.Antin]

.The record was in excellent condition other than faint white splotchy marks all over that I assumed were mold. I pretreated with AI #15 for 5 min per AI’s instructions. After further cleaning and drying, the record was cleaner, but the splotches remained. Did I do something wrong? Could the splotches be something else?

Audio Intelligent directions https://elusivedisc.com/content/pdfs/AIVSinstructions.pdf have a bit of a caveat when working with enzymes and this is addressed in the Recommended Pre-Soaking Method as follows:

In many cases it is necessary to repeat this process 2 to 4 times to completely clean the record. Here’s why: Although the fluid quantity is sufficient to cover the surface of the record, the quantity of fluid is small. As contaminants break down, they can populate the fluid to the point of obstructing the effectiveness of the enzymatic content of the Premium Record Cleaner Formula No. 15, Enzymatic, and Premium One-Step Formulas. If this happens, the used fluid needs to be removed from the record and new fluid applied.

Additionally, enzymes are not universal cleaners. They are proteins and are good for breaking down other proteins such as body fluids which is why they are used in clothes washing and pre-cleaning used medical instruments. Additionally, there are many different enzymes and each targets a specific soil - it's called the lock & key concept. Also, enzymes dissolve soils, so they need soak time which is different from surfactants that essentially breakup soils but need agitation, and the AI #15 is a blend of enzymes and surfactants. So best use should be obtained by both soaking to take advantage of the enzyme and then brushing to take advantage of the surfactants. Just keep in mind that vacuum-RCM is a machine assisted manual cleaning process. The chemistry, brush and your technique are what cleans the record (except for the few automated machines with agitation).

What you are seeing may be what I call sleeve rash. Paper sleeves which are not acid-free can leave a surface that you are seeing if stored improperly (too tight, not vertical, and elevated temperature) and it is not correctable. The paper is breaking down and reacting with the record surface, and I have also seen this on new old stock records. As far as the plastic sleeve, depending on the actual sleeve material and how the record was stored, damage can occur by a reaction with the record. However, please keep in mind that while records have some plasticizer its very little at about 1% (by the RCA patent) and its of type that does not easily migrate, and records do not specifically have a mold release but instead have a small amount of lubricant (0.4% by the RCA patent) that also serves that purpose. RCA Patent - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/b6/ac/a3/33b9d37bfdc952/US3960790.pdf.