Degritter considerations

[Zeotrope]

My lps are all brand new so I never have fort of cleaning them. I avoid second hand lps.

new records should also be cleaned!

 

[Zeotrope]

Replacing my Audio Desk Glass with a Degritter. I liked the AD, it did the job over more than 300 records, no reliability issues at all. What I didn't like was:
- the high cost of cleaning fluid: $25 per tank is crazy. I never clean 100-200 records at once, so I ended up having to buy a $25 bottle of cleaner whenever I had a new record purchase. Degritter costs about $0.50/tank. You shouldn't leave the water in the tank (or in a bottle) for more than a few weeks with either machine.
- the lame filtering action: often water will flow over top of the filter. When I asked AD about this, they sent me an arrogant reply stating it must be my fault!
- no swappable water tanks
- questionable ultrasonic performance: sometimes there would be lots of bubbles, other times very few
- cleaning brushes weren't of much use and probably more of a con than a pro. If I buy a used LP, I will clean it with the spin clean first
- stupid parts pricing: $25 for a sponge "filter"?! Come on!
- arrogant/borderline rude customer service

The Audio Desk is still a great machine, especially for whoever snags mine for half off retail!

 

[adrianywu]

Replacing my Audio Desk Glass with a Degritter. I liked the AD, it did the job over more than 300 records, no reliability issues at all. What I didn't like was:
- the high cost of cleaning fluid: $25 per tank is crazy. I never clean 100-200 records at once, so I ended up having to buy a $25 bottle of cleaner whenever I had a new record purchase. Degritter costs about $0.50/tank. You shouldn't leave the water in the tank (or in a bottle) for more than a few weeks with either machine.
- the lame filtering action: often water will flow over top of the filter. When I asked AD about this, they sent me an arrogant reply stating it must be my fault!
- no swappable water tanks
- questionable ultrasonic performance: sometimes there would be lots of bubbles, other times very few
- cleaning brushes weren't of much use and probably more of a con than a pro. If I buy a used LP, I will clean it with the spin clean first
- stupid parts pricing: $25 for a sponge "filter"?! Come on!
- arrogant/borderline rude customer service

The Audio Desk is still a great machine, especially for whoever snags mine for half off retail!

The Autodesk I had leaked, but I gather it was more of a problem with the earlier machines. And then finally, the brushes stopped rotating. I bought the Degritter during the crowd funding stage. It took almost a year to arrive, but I have been very happy with it. When my original machine started to become erratic (the record rotating erratically), I e-mailed the company. It must have been at least two years since the machine arrived, but they offered to exchange it with a brand new machine free, because they had upgraded that mechanism. As promised, they sent the new machine and a UPS label to return the old machine. The only thing that I think can be improved on is the drying function. Blow drying will leave residues on the record. Maybe a vacuum suction wand (perhaps along the slot) to suck up the excess fluid instead ?

 

[tima]

The Autodesk I had leaked, but I gather it was more of a problem with the earlier machines. And then finally, the brushes stopped rotating. I bought the Degritter during the crowd funding stage. It took almost a year to arrive, but I have been very happy with it. When my original machine started to become erratic (the record rotating erratically), I e-mailed the company. It must have been at least two years since the machine arrived, but they offered to exchange it with a brand new machine free, because they had upgraded that mechanism. As promised, they sent the new machine and a UPS label to return the old machine. The only thing that I think can be improved on is the drying function. Blow drying will leave residues on the record. Maybe a vacuum suction wand (perhaps along the slot) to suck up the excess fluid instead ?

Rainer Glass took the arrows of being a pioneer for the first mainstream vertical push-button desktop machine. Maybe it is unfair to say his accomplishment was to pave the way for competitors. Despite early issues his machines have cleaned a lot of records. Degritter gets credit for being a student of his effort and learning that it pays not to ignore problems especially within a few years of launch. Reputation is hard won and hard to regain.

Blow drying is an issue for any of the desktop machines that dry the record in the same tank it is washed. Between wash and dry ideally there is a rinse step outside the wash tank.

Even substituting another reservoir of distilled water in the Degritter is less than optimal because the wash tank accumulates dirt inside itself. (A general problem with all desktop machines to date is how to clean them on the inside; none in production have more than a minimalist filter.)

An option is to avoid the wash tank fan and acquire a second DeGritter for rinsing and blow drying only. A bit pricey. Or use a horizontal machine (Loricraft, Monks, VPI) exclusively for rinsing and vacuum suction. That's somewhat time consuming as you need to do both sides. And it requires space for two machines. And horizontal machines are messy. But if you already have one il may make sense.

With a decent rinse, blow drying is less compelling which opens possibilites for alternative rinse options using a cheap ultrasonic tank and something to turn the record. A record will air dry within twenty minutes and in a room that is kept clean, the chance of dirt landing on its surface is minimal, especially if it is held vertical in a box maybe with a heat lamp.

The primary appeal of push button desktop machines seems to be convenience and there is some cost to that: one record at a time and some of the issues above. Nonetheless if that convenience gets people to clean their vinyl that is worthwhile versus the alternative!

 

[tima]

- cleaning brushes weren't of much use and probably more of a con than a pro.

Actually the AD brushes are its main cleaning method. There is but a single rather tame ultrasonic transducer in that machine. Otherwise I thought your comments were fair.

 

[adrianywu]

Here's something important about the Degritter filter: My records are basically clean. They've been cleaned with other machines and I never see visible residue. After about 20 cleanings (to get very small contaminants out of the deepest part of the grooves) the only thing on the filter was black. i find this very disturbing. The only thing black that has been in the tank is my LP's. This is a long standing concern by some about ultrasonic cleaners, at least about some of them. The black on the filter is proof positive, at least to me, that there is an issue. I'm not knowledgable enough to know if it's the frequency, power, whatever but it's definitely there. I cleaned it and did some more albums I don't much care about. Same thing. Just sayin'. I know many love it but I'm backing away.

The diamond stylus shaves off the vinyl during play. The black is therefore the vinyl dust in the grooves. The 120kHz ultrasound in the Degritter is used for cleaning semiconductors, which is far more delicate than vinyl. It produces smaller bubbles than the 40Hz ultrasound used in the other machines, and can get much deeper into the grooves.

 

[Zeotrope]

Here's something important about the Degritter filter: My records are basically clean. They've been cleaned with other machines and I never see visible residue. After about 20 cleanings (to get very small contaminants out of the deepest part of the grooves) the only thing on the filter was black. i find this very disturbing. The only thing black that has been in the tank is my LP's. This is a long standing concern by some about ultrasonic cleaners, at least about some of them. The black on the filter is proof positive, at least to me, that there is an issue. I'm not knowledgable enough to know if it's the frequency, power, whatever but it's definitely there. I cleaned it and did some more albums I don't much care about. Same thing. Just sayin'. I know many love it but I'm backing away.

I think it's a Pro, not a Con, that you are seeing black in the filter -- it means the Degritter is doing its job.

 

[Zeotrope]

It's impossible for it to damage records: distilled water + bubbles is not going to "eat" into your vinyl.

I have a Degritter and love it. Sold my Audiodesk Glass.

 

[djsina2]

Clean your filter and wash only colored vinyl discs. What do you see?

 

[rando]

Same as rinsing a colored (red/yellow/green) piece of clothing some distance into its life?

In other words are you suggesting a finished but unsealed piece of wood would show damage if any dust or small collectable pieces were still present on it.

 

[tima]

The diamond stylus shaves off the vinyl during play. The black is therefore the vinyl dust in the grooves.

This sounds like serious cartridge misalignment.

 

[adrianywu]

This sounds like serious cartridge misalignment.

Diamond is used to cut glass afterall.

 

[bazelio]

This sounds like serious cartridge misalignment.

Even then, I doubt it.

 

[tima]

Even then, I doubt it.

I agree.

 

[Rensselaer]

Following the suggestion of an expert on another forum; I made 1:100 dilution Tergitol 15-S-9 and keep it in a 500 mL laboratory grade pyrex bottle with wide mouth. I use a 10mL adjustable pipette to draw up 6mL then 5mL (11mL total) to add to one of two degritter tanks filled with De-gassed distilled water (the second is for rinsing, however I find little left to rinse with this mix), the run that through Degass again to mix. I used to add 7mL isopropyl after and again Degass, but have started following the Degritter suggested method of using their fine cloth wetted with 100% lab grade isopropyl alcohol to wipe the record carefully first, run the record through on the medium duration (no dry then, pull tank and replace with the second tank of just pure degassed distilled water), add dry time and intensity and run on medium duration again. This was the process I used when I worried about possible Tergitol residue being left on the disc, however I now skip the rinse tank and note no difference whatsoever.

Note: this mix does foam up a bit on the LP surface, but so does the Degritter surfactant/cleaner at recommended strength so not convinced it is a problem. Also, second Degritter, the first popped then no longer worked about a year and a half into use. The folks at Degritter replaced it under warranty at no cost to me, quickly and without hassle. They make a great product and stand behind it (a rare event these days sadly).

second Note: I too clean brand new records in the Degritter and such not only removes vinyl and other dust from the surface, but also takes away any static charge.

 

[tima]

Following the suggestion of an expert on another forum; I made 1:100 dilution Tergitol 15-S-9 and keep it in a 500 mL laboratory grade pyrex bottle with wide mouth. I use a 10mL adjustable pipette to draw up 6mL then 5mL (11mL total) to add to one of two degritter tanks filled with De-gassed distilled water (the second is for rinsing, however I find little left to rinse with this mix), the run that through Degass again to mix. I used to add 7mL isopropyl after and again Degass, but have started following the Degritter suggested method of using their fine cloth wetted with 100% lab grade isopropyl alcohol to wipe the record carefully first, run the record through on the medium duration (no dry then, pull tank and replace with the second tank of just pure degassed distilled water), add dry time and intensity and run on medium duration again. This was the process I used when I worried about possible Tergitol residue being left on the disc, however I now skip the rinse tank and note no difference whatsoever.

Note: this mix does foam up a bit on the LP surface, but so does the Degritter surfactant/cleaner at recommended strength so not convinced it is a problem. Also, second Degritter, the first popped then no longer worked about a year and a half into use. The folks at Degritter replaced it under warranty at no cost to me, quickly and without hassle. They make a great product and stand behind it (a rare event these days sadly).

second Note: I too clean brand new records in the Degritter and such not only removes vinyl and other dust from the surface, but also takes away any static charge.

Sounds like you're reading Neil Antin, which is good -- he knows his stuff.

I used a no rinse approach for several years based on my theory that top grade filtering would keep the wash tank water clean. Anything that is in the wash tank water will be in the water on the record when it dries. Neil convinced me that rinsing is still a critical step. I bought another Elmasonic tank and Kuzma RD rotisserie to use for rinsing. I definitely hear the improvement that comes from rinsing, even when using a .2 micron absolute filter with the wash tank. I also filter the rinse tank.

That Degritter has a filter is good. However it is not that great of a filter and the last time I looked it had no rating. There is more detritus in the wash water than Tergitol residue. There is all the dirt that comes off the record. A weakness of desktop single slot machines is the difficulty of cleaning the inside of the tank which accumulates gunk with every wash.

I encourage taking the extra step to continue rinsing with your second Degritter.

tima's DIY RCM

I've written three articles about my adventures assembling an USC RCM - that's an UltraSonic Cleaning Record Cleaning Machine. The third installment was published today at Bill Hart's The Vinyl Press, so I thought to put the links here. Over the decades I used a variety of record cleaning...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Shuggie]

I recently upgraded the firmware of my original Degritter - I didn't expect any particular improvement, but the new pre-soak now added before the main wash seems to be very effective indeed. Records that had been previously cleaned in the machine seem to sound more vibrant and clear. Could all be my imagination, but given the update was free, it's a good result!

The Degritter is still one of the best things that I've ever bought in something like 40 years in this hobby.