Degritter Mark II

My experience with DeGritter and static is a no-static charge record in is a no-static charge out record.
How do I know?
I used a very expensive static measurement device, in photo.

Also, my made in the UK Zerostat purchased when they first came out (40 or more years ago?) still works perfect.
 

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It's good the Degritter has a filter, but it is very small. Unknown to me is the Degritter's filter micron rating (pore size); in other words, what size particle will it filter and what size particle is allowed to pass through it at what percentage of the time

Tim,

The DG 'filter' is reticulated foam which is measured in pores-per-inch (PPI) and these foams come in ranges from 4 to 100 PPI https://ufoam.com/images/ufoam/downloads/brochures-tech-info/tis-reticulated-foams2016.pdf . There is no standardized conversion that could find of PPI to some kind of diameter that could then relate it to a sediment filter. The best I have seen is 10-ppi = ~0.1" and 60-ppi = 0.015", so with the DG foam filter rated at best 100-ppi, the equivalent diameter is maybe 0.01" = 250 microns. One caveat is that as the filter clogs it will tend to filter better.

FYI - DG hired a chemist, and they now have a custom blended low-foaming, acid-cleaner that will be available Jun-2024 https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34490219 that I reviewed here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34493113 and https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34497051. It appears that DG will also be recommending this new cleaner for the DG tabletop units, but from what I can understand, I do not see this new cleaner as a no-rinse cleaner. But curious to see what DG recommends.

Take care,
Neil
 
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When it comes to dusting, using the right tool is crucial. Swiffer dusters, which are disposable, have a positive charge that attracts negatively charged dust particles like a magnet, allowing them to pick up more dust and debris compared to microfiber cloths that rely solely on friction.
This does not fully explain the Swiffer duster. PVC records which on the triboelectric scale are very negative - https://cdn1.byjus.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/triboelectric-series-triboelectric-effect.png attract particles & fibers that tend to be positively charged. From this PG patent (edit, here is the patent - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/f8/23/c0/28830e519ced8f/US7803726.pdf ) for the Swiffer Duster, it appears that the duster fibers are those that are low on the Triboelectric series implying that they tend to have a negative charge that attracts positively charged particles and the duster-fiber design is one that traps dust. But these are intended for visible dust and whether they are fragile enough to deposit very small invisible particles (<50-microns) is unknown beyond user experience.
 
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I have never bothered with a separate rinse stage. Doesn't seem like a fail to me. I also believe the "Foam" you see is just unburst bubbles.
 
The DG 'filter' is reticulated foam which is measured in pores-per-inch (PPI) and these foams come in ranges from 4 to 100 PPI https://ufoam.com/images/ufoam/downloads/brochures-tech-info/tis-reticulated-foams2016.pdf . There is no standardized conversion that could find of PPI to some kind of diameter that could then relate it to a sediment filter. The best I have seen is 10-ppi = ~0.1" and 60-ppi = 0.015", so with the DG foam filter rated at best 100-ppi, the equivalent diameter is maybe 0.01" = 250 microns. One caveat is that as the filter clogs it will tend to filter better.

I'm guessing that is cubic inches? Anyone know what is the DG filter size?

Could one of the Degritter users take a picture of a new filter and of a filter after ... what? ... 20 records?

FYI - DG hired a chemist, and they now have a custom blended low-foaming, acid-cleaner that will be available Jun-2024 https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34490219 that I reviewed here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34493113 and https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/degritter-users.856572/page-181#post-34497051. It appears that DG will also be recommending this new cleaner for the DG tabletop units, but from what I can understand, I do not see this new cleaner as a no-rinse cleaner. But curious to see what DG recommends.

That is quite the custom made (complex) chemical. Used for both brushing and ultrasonic? I give them credit for approaching such a product. Any reason it could not work in a 'standard' ultrasonic tank at some temperature?. Any sense of how it might compare with Tergitol 15-S-9 + IPA?
 
FYI: The original DeGritter filters were an off-white color and their latest filters are white-white.
With the off-white filter, after approximately 20 records, clean filter, no noticeable difference compared to new off-white filter.
 
I'm guessing that is cubic inches?
Tim:

The dimensions I provided were simply diameter.
Any reason it could not work in a 'standard' ultrasonic tank at some temperature?. Any sense of how it might compare with Tergitol 15-S-9 + IPA?
Yes and No. The new DG cleaner is very complicated.

First read what Elmasonic say about acid cleaners on page 18 - https://www.elma-ultrasonic.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/P-series-Operating-Instructions.pdf. The common alloy-304/316 stainless steels are sensitive to attack by acids in combination with other contaminants. There is some literature that speaks of triethanolamine (the pH stabilizer) as a corrosion inhibitor and Alconox Citranox which contains triethanolamine indicates: Corrosion inhibited formulation recommended for glass, metal, stainless steel, porcelain, ceramic, plastic, rubber and fiberglass. Can be used on soft metals such as copper, bronze, aluminum, and zinc if rinsed promptly. Corrosion testing may be advisable.

They are using the glycol ether water soluble solvents to do essentially what the Tergitol 15-S-9 + IPA does. But DG cannot use Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.015% (3x critical micelle concentration (CMC)) because of foam. Also, the DG high frequency (120-kHz) compromises its ability to clean surface soils such as fingerprints that the Elmasonic dual frequency 35/80-kHz with 0.015% Tergitol 15-S-9 + 2.5% IPA excels.

Also, not sure if the DG cleaner use of glycol ethers is not somewhat compromised by the absence of a nonionic surfactant at >CMC and the use propylene glycol based on what DOW writes - https://www.dow.com/documents/110/110-00632-01-glycol-ethers-for-aqueous-cleaners.pdf?iframe=true. Glycol ethers can have a very high evaporation rate which makes them sometimes used (along with some alcohol and ammonium hydroxide) for streak free window cleaners. But the propylene glycol is a fly in the ointment so to say. Also, excessive exposure to some glycol ethers (the BUTYLDIGLYCOLE) can be a health hazard - https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2016-09/documents/glycol-ethers.pdf. The other glycol ether (1-METHOXY-2-PROPANOL) is safer, but its flammable (89F concentrated) https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1613.pdf. The actual risk depends on the concentration & exposure.

The 0.015% Tergitol 15-S-9 + 2.5% IPA is very safe non-flammable neutral pH detergent, that is also very safe for the UT tank and materials associated with any pump/filter/cooling system. The 2.5% IPA is complimentary with the Tergitol in two ways - it should reduce its CMC, and it should assist with soil swell the same way as glycol ethers.

Like I have said, the new DG cleaner is complicated. There is a lot going on with this cleaner from the acidity to the glycol ethers to corrosion inhibition along with the cationic surfactant for anti-static and the propylene glycol. A question that comes to mind is how is the user to monitor the cleaner chemistry concentration for extended use in an UT tank? Do they monitor pH, do they monitor TDS, etc.

My initial concern is the bottle they will sell since they say to use 500:1 to 1000:1 which implies the bottle is pretty concentrated and I already wrote, the acid at 2% has a pH so low, you would no longer measure it on the pH scale. But some organic acids such a variation of hydrochloric acid are very safe, http://www.rydlyme.co.uk/images/Files/Specification_Rydlyme_2013.pdf is used for industrial descaling (evaluated this product when I with the Navy to clean biofouling & scale from heat exchangers).

What can I tell you, try if you like, and I am quite sure many people will. Without knowing all the ingredient concentrations, I am sitting this one out and will just monitor the user experiences.

Take care,
Neil
 
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Quick question: is it necessary to wear ear protection with Degritter? It is very quiet compared to Kirmuss which is to be expected due to 120 kHz vs 35 kHz. But still, can it somehow affect your hearing?
 
Quick question: is it necessary to wear ear protection with Degritter? It is very quiet compared to Kirmuss which is to be expected due to 120 kHz vs 35 kHz. But still, can it somehow affect your hearing?

First time I've heard that question! I suppose it would not be harmful to do so.

My system uses 37kHz and 80kHz and I have absolutely no sense of hearing impact. The frequencies do sound different and the volume is relatively low compared to a symphony. :)
 
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I have a diy ultrasonic machine around 200watts at 40KHz. I always put on big isolating headphones when switching it on and off and operate it in the bathroom keeping doors closed. It’s too noisy.

Years ago once I stand next to it while it’s cleaning records for 10 minutes and it caused some irritation in my ears and uncomfortableness. Maybe it’s not related but I cannot stand it’s operating sound.
 
Higher frequency machines are less obnoxious to the human ear. I can stand next to my 60kHz machine and not be bothered, though I suspect 40kHz machines would be obnoxious. Higher frequency machines should be far less noticeable or intrusive. Hell, my cat can be in the room with my 60kHz machine and not be bothered, and they have far higher frequency hearing range than humans.
 
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I'm guessing that is cubic inches? Anyone know what is the DG filter size?

Could one of the Degritter users take a picture of a new filter and of a filter after ... what? ... 20 records?



That is quite the custom made (complex) chemical. Used for both brushing and ultrasonic? I give them credit for approaching such a product. Any reason it could not work in a 'standard' ultrasonic tank at some temperature?. Any sense of how it might compare with Tergitol 15-S-9 + IPA?
Sorry, @tima I haven't been keeping up with the thread. Here are two images taken in Feb. 2024 of Degritter MK II filters, all pulled after 50 rotations (the counter is based on rotations, not discs cleaned). The second image is the same file, with saturation boosted so the yellowish color of some of the contaminants is more visible. The shot was taken before I began using the pre-cleaning method I use today (briefly, multiple cleaning steps with multiple rinses on a VPI MW-1 Cyclone). Once I I upped my pre-cleaning game, the spent filters became much cleaner, with very little yellow contaminants. Current process uses three separate tanks, with only the first tank containing cleaning solution. I normally process about five records at a time, so tanks get swapped after each batch is processed.
 

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Sorry, @tima I haven't been keeping up with the thread. Here are two images taken in Feb. 2024 of Degritter MK II filters, all pulled after 50 rotations (the counter is based on rotations, not discs cleaned). The second image is the same file, with saturation boosted so the yellowish color of some of the contaminants is more visible. The shot was taken before I began using the pre-cleaning method I use today (briefly, multiple cleaning steps with multiple rinses on a VPI MW-1 Cyclone). Once I I upped my pre-cleaning game, the spent filters became much cleaner, with very little yellow contaminants. Current process uses three separate tanks, with only the first tank containing cleaning solution. I normally process about five records at a time, so tanks get swapped after each batch is processed.

Thanks for that follow-up Jim. Can you see the filter in the Degritter to monitor its state?

Taking a small step off the Degritter track ... documentation of one's own efforts, particularly pictures, are one way to measure progress and assess technique effectiveness.

When I built my first ultrasonic tank -- back when I knew nothing -- I included a small filter along with a pump made from a hot-drink dispenser. The picture below convinced me I was on a good path and eventually adopted more and more aggressive filtrations. 84 records cleaned (L) brand new filter (R)

DIY-RCM_Dirty)_vs_Clean_Filter_119_records_cleaned.png
1 micron (nominal) particle retention
 
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Thanks for that follow-up Jim. Can you see the filter in the Degritter to monitor its state?
Morning Tim. I agree that visual documentation can be helpful. Fact is, I can catch things with the camera I can't easily see with the naked eye. I've got quite a library of images and videos documenting not only the filtration system, but the internals of the ultrasonic tank before and after the routine machine cleaning process I've adopted. Because visual inspection is difficult, it was only through review of the stills and videos that I got a handle on how much contamination accumulates at the water line and on the splash strips affixed to the center of the tank, half above the water line. The unit also has a series of metal probes attached to sensors and those, too, can accumulate contamination right at the water line.

To your question, the tiny Degritter filter is hidden inside the machine and can only be inspected by removing it and pulling it out of its housing. You could do this at any time the machine is idle, but doing so would be a pain and IMO not worth the effort. As you can see in pic 1, (a new housing and filter) the filter housing includes a screen that presumably catches very large bits, although I've never seen much on it. Some contaminate types will adhere to it, so cleaning it prior to re-use is important (I do have three housings in rotation). One nice thing about the COM-100 TDS meter is its cap is exactly the right size for the filter screen. Pour in some 99% IPA, set the housing in and it will clean up nicely overnight. The filter housing's cap seals the top of the COM-100 cap.

The well that the filter housing screws into also needs to be inspected and flushed out whenever one changes out the filter. I've had occasion to find larger bits clinging to the edges of the inflow and outflow holes.

For a time I experimented with cleaning the filters themselves, simply because it seemed a waste to have to toss them after 50 rotations. I was never satisfied with the results. Pic 2 shows a 99% IPA bath after soaking a batch of spent filters. Pic 3 is the same image with saturation boosted to bring out the yellowish tint.

Pic 4 is a closeup of the residue remaining after pouring off the IPA. My inspection of that residue included rubbing some of it between thumb and forefinger. Much of that black stuff is quite soft. I won't say what my conclusion was as to its origins, but will say that at that time I was using spin-cleans for my pre-cleaning process and that I have since abandoned them.

I want to reiterate that these images were taken prior to my current pre-cleaning process. Once I put the VPI MW-1 Cyclone back into service as a pre-cleaning station, my Degritter filters after 50 cycles were much cleaner. Most of the yellowish tint was gone. The overall coloration now is usually a pretty light gray, much lighter than any of the spent filters in the pics from my previous post. At this point only hot off the press new issues that ship in poly inners go straight into the Degritter. Even those older pressings I acquired still sealed go through pre-cleaning.

Degritter recommends cleaning and flushing the unit after 200 rotations using a vinegar solution. I've found the machine has so many small crevices and moving parts in the ultrasonic tank that I now do that cleaning every 100 rotations. Proper cleaning is no small task and returning the machine to a steady state ( DI water in = 0.2 ppm, becomes 0.6 ppm post degas) requires more full tanks of rinse water than I care for, but as @rDin can attest, it's necessary to achieve optimal results from the unit. He dumps his spent wash water at a lower TDS than I do (has two machines). With my 3-tank process, I'm currently tossing the final rinse around 1.6 ppm.

Finally, I've had some conversations with Degritter regarding its upcoming Phonoteek, a much larger, more robust and more expensive unit. I bring that up only because when it comes to the number of transducers, frequency and power rating, Degritter has confirmed it is identical to the MKII. It does add rotating brushes, and a separate rinse tank, but where it differs the most from the MK II is in its filtration system. I would say they've probably taken a page out of your book in that regard. - Jim
 

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Morning Tim. I agree that visual documentation can be helpful. Fact is, I can catch things with the camera I can't easily see with the naked eye. ...

Finally, I've had some conversations with Degritter regarding its upcoming Phonoteek, a much larger, more robust and more expensive unit. I bring that up only because when it comes to the number of transducers, frequency and power rating, Degritter has confirmed it is identical to the MKII. It does add rotating brushes, and a separate rinse tank, but where it differs the most from the MK II is in its filtration system. I would say they've probably taken a page out of your book in that regard.

Excellent post, Jim -- thanks for taking the time to write it and post the pictures. Good information about the larger Phonotek.
 
Excellent post, Jim -- thanks for taking the time to write it and post the pictures. Good information about the larger Phonotek.
Morning Tim, it's off-topic, but I'll just pass on that when talking to Degritter support about the Phonoteek, they've been unable to answer some of my questions, saying some things haven't been finalized. Not sure if they're telling me hardware isn't set, but when it comes to software related matters, i.e. max number of rotations that can be set, whether the transducers are active during the rinse cycle, they're telling me they're still working on it.
 
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Quick question: is it necessary to wear ear protection with Degritter? It is very quiet compared to Kirmuss which is to be expected due to 120 kHz vs 35 kHz. But still, can it somehow affect your hearing?
I never wore ear protection with my Degritter but I do with my KL. It’s much louder in comparison. Feel as though damage is being done if I don’t.
 
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