KLAudio returns - new KD-CLN-LP200T RCM

When we compared KL and Audiodesk, the venue ambience was there more on AD and lost on KL. the compares were all on good quality classical. We did many LPs, and the randomised the order. Some were cleaned on AD first and listened, then KL second and heard again. Some the other way round. This was done on two visits. Regardless, both my friend and I preferred the AD. The KL makes the LP sound quiet, but loses the venue ambience. Is that just the high frequency loss your friend is talking about?

Comparing RCMs back and forth with a set of LPs is not the most straightforward way to compare them because you can never clean the same record twice. Using your example: if you clean with AudioDeske and hear venue context then clean that same record with KLA, did you hear less venue context? I'm not disputing your preference, just being sceptical of the methodology.

Fwiw, the AD is a very different machine and protocol from the KLA. The AD uses two cavitators, brushes and detergent while the.KLA uses four cavitators and water only

Imo, from my experience comparing record cleaning machines and products, the best we can probably hope for is judgement based on broader considerations over time. For used records, clean 20 with one method and a different 20 with another method. From playing/listening do you notice any tendencies? Of corse there many other factors for evaluating machines themselves.

I am not switching machines. But I will set the machine to only 1 minute of cleaning going forward.

Pardon me, that makes no sense. Will you get one full rotation in a minute?

the build quality of the KL Audio makes other RCM's i've tried look like toys.

I agree that build quality and feature set are superior with KLA, especially newest models. Early AD machines had teething problems as Reiner Glass perfected his design and today they remain near impossible to repair and difficult to clean internally. (I was fortunate with one I owned which worked fine.) However, I do not believe that cleaning without soap / surfactant is more effective for most objects including vinyl records. There are chemicals such as Tergitol that clean vinyl quite effectively. I'm not suggesting you should be dissatisfied with your KLA results, just talking best practice.
 
Evidence is more helpful than listening for the absence of a frequency. Filter the water down to the sub-micron level and produce the vinyl shavings. Iirc Klaudio operates its cavitators at 40kHz which is considered fairly low.relative to the 120kHz Degritter. Elmasonic tanks operate at both 38 and 80kHz. More likely age accounts for high frequency hearing loss.
Tim,

KLAudio reported that they did just that but after running an extreme 9-hrs continuous (they installed a special board to allow the 9-hrs) and at 40C (104F) - https://klaudio.com/is-200w-safe-for-my-vinyl,. and they did the tests with colored records (blue and red) to make and record material particles/shards easy to see.

Otherwise, to attenuate the high frequency music the UT would need to affect the side wall ridges and reduce the side wall ridge modulation (the stylus displacement). When someone hears or perceives a change in the high frequency info, it can be a catch-22. Are you hearing an actual decrease in high frequency music, are you hearing distortion that can emphasize the highs, or are you hearing a clearer midrange that can shift your perception. I know that years ago Harry Weisfled (VPI) when he first started using UT (with a cleaning agent) indicated a loss of highs, but that was later determined to be cleaner residue. But the KLAudio UT uses no cleaning agents.

The Audiodesk is not much of a UT machine - about 60-80W, and in a volume of 4.5L https://galibierdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/Audiodesk_Pro_Manual-2017.pdf (the 2021 version does not change the power https://www.audiodesksysteme.de/instructions-manual.html), there will be some cavitation but not much intensity. The vertical rotating barrels are what is doing most of cleaning, and it does use a cleaning agent of unknown composition with unknown concentration (they add one small bottle to the 4.5L) and with no rinse step. It's a very different machine from the KLAudio.

WRT softer record formulas of older records, that kind of interesting since when RCA developed their record composition in 1974, they remarked that it was softer than expected S.K. Khanna & G.A. Bogantz, Development of Compound for Quadradiscs, RCA Engineer Magazine, 1976, Issue Feb-Mar https://www.worldradiohistory.com/ARCHIVE-RCA/RCA-Engineer/1976-02-03.pdf. The statement made also implies that they are doing repeated UT cleaning of records - why? Also, there is some recent testing that is being reported over at the SH forum where they are doing stylus hour testing detailed photographic analysis of the stylus, and styluses may not last the hours often specified. So, is this individual overusing the stylus to where it could shave down the side wall ridges, cleaning the record by UT and blaming the UT. When the real culprit is an overused stylus, and make no mistake, the lower the EDIT - VTF for stylus life the better.

Take care,
Neil
 
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So, is this individual overusing the stylus to where it could shave down the side wall ridges, cleaning the record by UT and blaming the UT.
A fair question. But I know that this is not the case with this particular audiophile. Whatever is going on, and whatever he is hearing, it is not due to an overused stylus.
 
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Comparing RCMs back and forth with a set of LPs is not the most straightforward way to compare them because you can never clean the same record twice. Using your example: if you clean with AudioDeske and hear venue context then clean that same record with KLA, did you hear less venue context? I'm not disputing your preference, just being sceptical of the methodology.

Fwiw, the AD is a very different machine and protocol from the KLA. The AD uses two cavitators, brushes and detergent while the.KLA uses four cavitators and water only

Imo, from my experience comparing record cleaning machines and products, the best we can probably hope for is judgement based on broader considerations over time. For used records, clean 20 with one method and a different 20 with another method. From playing/listening do you notice any tendencies? Of corse there many other factors for evaluating machines themselves.



Pardon me, that makes no sense. Will you get one full rotation in a minute?



I agree that build quality and feature set are superior with KLA, especially newest models. Early AD machines had teething problems as Reiner Glass perfected his design and today they remain near impossible to repair and difficult to clean internally. (I was fortunate with one I owned which worked fine.) However, I do not believe that cleaning without soap / surfactant is more effective for most objects including vinyl records. There are chemicals such as Tergitol that clean vinyl quite effectively. I'm not suggesting you should be dissatisfied with your KLA results, just talking best practice.

I think you missed what I wrote. Whatever the order of cleaning, the venue information was there after AD and lost (relative to AD) with KL
 
A fair question. But I know that this is not the case with this particular audiophile. Whatever is going on, and whatever he is hearing, it is not due to an overused stylus.

I just think he is an audiophile and wanted to buy another machine - we use lots of illogical reasons to convince ourselves sometimes
 
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I think you missed what I wrote. Whatever the order of cleaning, the venue information was there after AD and lost (relative to AD) with KL

I did not miss that and I understand your claim about hearing or not hearing venue. To make sure I understand ... you are saying that the KLA actually reduces or looses venue information after cleaning with AD?
 
I did not miss that and I understand your claim about hearing or not hearing venue. To make sure I understand ... you are saying that the KLA actually reduces or looses venue information after cleaning with AD?

Yes
 
Excellent post, Neil - thank you.

Also, there is some recent testing that is being reported over at the SH forum where they are doing stylus hour testing detailed photographic analysis of the stylus, and styluses may not last the hours often specified.

I have not seen the info on the SH forum. Wrt stylus wear, a few years back Mike Bodell published an extensive paper on that topic on Bill Hart's site The Vinyl Press


edit: another observation: a misaligned stylus, old or new,, may exacerbate record wear.
 
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Fascinating. Is that loss relative to what you heard after AD cleaning or prior to any cleaning or both?

No relative to AD. Both sounded better than before cleaning overall. It was just this venue air that stood out as the main difference.

Our guess was that this was possibly due to the AD actually physically touching with the rollers it uses
 
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No relative to AD. Both sounded better than before cleaning overall. It was just this venue air that stood out as the main difference.

Our guess was that this was possibly due to the AD actually physically touching with the rollers it uses

Yes they are different types of machines and brushes are the primary method for AD. Another possible explanation is that the AD uses surfactant in conjunction with brushes.

We have that over here with car washes: 'touchless' and 'soft touch'.
 
I just think he is an audiophile and wanted to buy another machine
No, that is not the situation here.

- we use lots of illogical reasons to convince ourselves sometim
You've just indicted the entire hobby. (I am not saying you're wrong.)
 
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No, that is not the situation here.


You've just indicted the entire hobby. (I am not saying you're wrong.)

Ron, just think of the turnover of your equipment in the last 18 months. :)
 
Ron, just think of the turnover of your equipment in the last 18 months. :)
He has his logic to justify it - this was back in Jan. There already has been turnover since.


 
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Ron, just think of the turnover of your equipment in the last 18 months. :)
A different speaker, a different preamp and a different cartridge and an additional amplifier is lot for me, for sure. Because once the system is set, I don't change a single component.

But I'm not sure that one swap of three things and an additional third thing is a lot compared to many.
 
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Vinyl records can accumulate a significant amount of static electricity. Back in 1996, when I knew nothing about vinyl playback (and maybe I still don’t know any better), I always complained about excessive high frequencies in vinyl. I consulted all my vinyl-listening friends, but they seemed fine with the excessive highs—they hadn’t noticed them and assumed they were part of the recording.

I tried changing phono stages, cartridges, and turntables, but nothing solved the issue. Then, around 1997–1998, I started washing my records with dish soap and tap water, and I noticed that most of the excessive high frequencies disappeared. Vinyl began to sound more robust, with a proper foundation—cleaner, with fewer clicks and pops.

I enjoyed recording and analyzing vinyl back then, just as I do now, and I discovered that some of the excessive high frequencies were actually distortion caused by static electricity. Ultrasonic cleaning with deionized water effectively removes this static, eliminating nastiness.

Maybe, @Ron Resnick, what your friend is hearing is the result of static being removed. It’s similar to how demagnetizing vinyl attenuates high frequencies and results in a quieter playback.
 
A different speaker, a different preamp and a different cartridge and an additional amplifier is lot for me, for sure. Because once the system is set, I don't change a single component.

But I'm not sure that one swap of three things and an additional third thing is a lot compared to many.


sure it is.

who do you know that has changed stuff as much?

you start over. especially going from twin towers to panels. then the big VTL's to Jadis is quite different. not sure when you stopped messing with room acoustics, you would have to say the last time the room treatment changed.

10 years from now is when you can look back to say when stuff actually settled down and were set......for 3-4 years in a row. where changing is no longer a thought.

becoming a dealer does bring more frequent changes, which is logical. it's nothing that is wrong, but does figure into things.
 
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A different speaker, a different preamp and a different cartridge and an additional amplifier is lot for me, for sure. Because once the system is set, I don't change a single component.

But I'm not sure that one swap of three things and an additional third thing is a lot compared to many.

Ron

At least you still have your same 20 albums to play over and over :)
 
Ron

At least you still have your same 20 albums to play over and over :)
Yes, typically several copies of each -- just in case the KL Audio machine is doing any damage.
 

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