Refund problem
- Thread starter ALF
- Start date
- Status
As a bystander on this thread, I would like to say that it would seem to me that there is no harm or foul by exposing an individual who is 'potentially' committing fraud in their dealings. IF said accusation(s) are true, then I see no reason why the exposure would NOT benefit the possible future victims that are potentially available to the accused. OTOH, IF the accusations are false ( and BTW, IMHO we are all innocent until proven guilty) then the accused has several options to defend themselves.
To the OP, i ask have you reported the allegations on this individual to INTERPOL?
To the OP, i ask have you reported the allegations on this individual to INTERPOL?
I was asked for this link:
Here is one of the Kasugi links; I have previously asked Dietrich/Axinia if these books were ever delivered. Dietrich/Axinia did not ask my question; hopefully, they were eventually delivered. Maybe Dietrich/Axinia/DDB could come forward and clear this up...please.
http://www.audiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=53934
http://www.hotfrog.de/Firmen/Axinia-Schaefer-Acoustical-systems
http://whois.polodomains.com/domain/pljdFsTJtuzSAMQ6PNIR6g.._info.html
Here is one of the Kasugi links; I have previously asked Dietrich/Axinia if these books were ever delivered. Dietrich/Axinia did not ask my question; hopefully, they were eventually delivered. Maybe Dietrich/Axinia/DDB could come forward and clear this up...please.
http://www.audiobanter.com/showthread.php?t=53934
http://www.hotfrog.de/Firmen/Axinia-Schaefer-Acoustical-systems
http://whois.polodomains.com/domain/pljdFsTJtuzSAMQ6PNIR6g.._info.html
Last edited:
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
So gentlemen, there seems to be sufficient discord that makes for more than just an anecdotal case. Having said that I am going to suggest that everyone remain civil if the thread is to be kept open. WBF has had similar threads which start in an almost exact fashion that ultimately lead down the path to where we are now. Thanks all
It seems the only lack of wisdom was in trusting this individual. And I remember this issue of late delivery of an Omnigon in another thread a month or two ago. Where was everybody then? It sure seems like some people are doing DDB bidding and he has yet to offer his version of this story.
No it isn't too late to add anything.
What I do find SAD is when I read what an individual, individules in this case have been threw and are still currently dealing with, the ordeal at hand and take the time to come forth providing such information reaching out and at the same time basically providing a warning for others so not to get burned but instead of getting support and/or assistance there always seems to be some responces from some individules posting negative as there have been in this thread which is not productive.
Lets try to stay on topic here, it's not about anyone elses purchases but what ALF and CSL have posted and their situation at hand and if you take the time to re-read both including ALF's responce above it's pretty disturbing.
Yes, Miles you are correct. Without sharing our experiences with this case, we would only be enabling his behavior to to continue. CSL and myself were told of his tendencies only after we were in, and only then, by the same people that encouraged us to jump in...the water is okay, then sorry, whoops, no help is available. That is okay, there are other avenues of satisfaction.
Also, the Omnigon you mentioned, was my Omnigon that was delivered months after I was assured that it would be shipping the next day...after collecting the money...oh, there is a part missing,... oh, I dropped it at University testing lab,...oh, I cannot come because I have a cold...oh, the dog ate my homework, and so on. During the last few weeks, I still had hope; however, as mentioned above and quoted from one of my Bavarian friends, "hope dies last."
Yes, it is embarrassing that I did not have that white wine early. However, we are a small community, even if some of the Bavarians are "keen," to protect their investments with this Dertonarm.
IMHO, Dertonarm was counting on our embarrassment protecting him from our discussing our situation. The District Attorney told us otherwise, that there is a responsibility, term, and a remedy for his behavior.
Best,
ALF
Here is the deal: I’m not defending Dertonarm or joining the lynch mob. I really wish he would come here and tell his side of the story as there are always two sides. We recently had someone else join WBF with seemingly the sole purpose of trashing a stereo dealer. What started out as a seemingly simple story about some poor soul getting ripped off by the greedy store owner suddenly devolved into an ultra-convoluted deal that would have put a smile on a change-artist’s face.
I said it before and I will say it again, Dertonarm had perfect feedback on Audiogon until April 26, 2012 after someone (and I believe it was someone on our forum who is posting in this thread) gave him negative feedback. I believe it was 62 positive feedbacks and one negative. I don’t know how you can scam people over a period of months let alone years and maintain perfect feedback over that time.
I said it before and I will say it again, Dertonarm had perfect feedback on Audiogon until April 26, 2012 after someone (and I believe it was someone on our forum who is posting in this thread) gave him negative feedback. I believe it was 62 positive feedbacks and one negative. I don’t know how you can scam people over a period of months let alone years and maintain perfect feedback over that time.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve,
i agree. this is about facts.
1. If I were Daniel's friends, and I wanted to protect him, i would do what they are doing -- become
uncivil and try to start rabbit trails. They are deliberating distracting this forum from the
seminal and key question:
Does Daniel have a history of defrauding people, and now recently has repeated that pattern?
2. The next question is : If Daniel is innocent of fraud, then why in 5 days have we not heard his proof? Facts. Facts that show innocence. Any impartial person will conclude that he cannot answer so many people who are finally speaking up.
The fact is that this thread as surprised me with how many people, none of whom i know, have added their own story of being defrauded and dishonesty. The fact is that others have collaborated my experince and ALF's. That shows that this is not an isolated incident, that there is a pattern here,
and in fact this thread has provided an important service to the community. which leads to the next question:
3. The 3rd question is: Do forums and the audio community have an obligation to expose fraud and dishonesty for the sake of the community?
The answer must be yes to that. Not to do so is to be an enabler of fraud. I must admit I have some anger at the Daniel's little group of German friends who knew his history, some of whom had experienced it first hand, and they did nor expose. They are accomplices in that sense.
SILENCE is culpable.
the fact is this thread is extremely valuable to the community: There is no doubt that there is a pattern of fraud and dishonesty. Too many people have posted saying so. It is very lame for this little group of German friends to use the tactic of incivility. They have said their piece. Enough.
Let us find out if there are more people. Let the forum not be afraid of the truth.
4. the last question is redemption: How can Daniel recover his reputation and continue to sell his gear? It is not by trashing people who have come forward. It is only by making things right with them. I have told him for months that you need to pay people the money you owe them NOW.
If you do the honest thing AND THEN THE COMMUNITY SEES YOU CONTINUE TO BE HONEST, THEN all is forgiven and forgotten. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE HONEST THING AND repay money you have defrauded people of. End of story.
What are the facts? For 6 months Daniel has refused to refund money he owes me. For the last 4 months i have pleaded with him to do the right thing. In return i got mails
calling me bad things, saying that he would no longer reply in English "because it is not his 1st language and therefore he will write in German!" Etc. It is only after my posts AND so many joined in collaborating it , that I finally got this mail from him yesterday. It is this forum that has him on the verge of doing the right thing by me, but he needs to do the same by Alf and whoever else he has defrauded.
I will post this letter and then comment:
Well Mike,
I would have no problem to talk to you nor to answer your calls ... if
.... if it would be possible to really communicate.
Communication means to me exactly that - communication.
It does not mean to accept being flooded with insults and threatening.
Your last calls on our answering machine were exactly that to me.
When I called you last time 2 weeks ago - it was a flood of dirt and
threat thrown at me.
I had little change to reach you with any word nor argument.
Your mind is already set beyond reach - at least it seems to be so - and
you are gladly falling to any bad word about me.
Rest assured, that I am very well prepared to answer all arguments
against me should we meet in a legal case soon.
Why i am so confident?
Simply because I know that it is not the way it seems to you based on
the internet gossip and the fact that I did not act the way you expected
and demanded.
I told you before that you will get refunded for your down payment as
well as the 8x8 - I told you too, that right now it is simply not
possible, as all our money is in the current project.
Again: simply not possible now at this moment.
my comment:
1. He admits he owes me 17000 for the apolyt and 8,000 for the 8x8.
He neglects to mention the $5000 silver coils for the xover never used,
etc that add up to a total of nearly $50,000!! That has been the pattern. In different ways reducing what he owes me (in one mail it almost got to where I owed him money!), and it changes from mail to mail. It wore me out so i gave up after 4 months and started posting. No reasonable person can say
i have not been patient or not given him lots of chances.
2. He is admitting that for 4 months he has had a lot of my money, but now he admits he is using my money to develop his Apolyt. And want to keep it till development is done. He says that he cannot pay me back because the money is developing a product. Then take a business loan out! Go to your German friends and borrow the money. But you do not have a right to force me into a loan to you.
No, you cannot use my money interest free or without my consent
3. As usual, he confuses the issues. The 8x8 was on a trial and approval basis. He has offered the same in writing to others. I told him in 2 days did not want to keep the monoblocks and wanted a refund. That was in mid-november. You cannot refuse a refund that promised ....because you need it to develop the Apolyt. The same with the silver coils. that was for a cross-over. The same for the Syntax step up that was to be refunded when the Omnigon was purchased. Never refunded. The same with the WBT spades and bananas not used. Another 30,000 beyond the Apolyt 17,000 that he continually has refused to refund. This is dishonest. this is defrauding me out of money. This has been his pattern with others as well.
4. It turns out many of us have experienced this doubletalk. The issue is simple: You cannot keep other people's money for months, even years, to do your projects. But worse, until this thread Daniel had gone silent. He does that. the experience is that when he owes you money, contact broken.
Finally yesterday he communicated and began to admit he owes me money.
5. "Rest assured I am prepared to answer all areguments against me should we meet in a legal case soon". Well, answer them on this forum. Why are you silent? Because you have just admitted in this letter that I am telling the truth!
6 This is not going to be a civil case. This is a criminal case of using the internet and wires for fraud. Have no illusions. I will post later Daniel on audiogon actually advising another that using wires and internet is a criminal offense if a person has been defrauded.
So friends of Daniel, stick to the facts and stop being uncivil. Part of the facts are in this letter. I have other material that is just too much to post.
there is only one solution: Daniel needs to redeem his reputation by paying me and others ALL THE MONEY he owes. I am not going to argue that.
7. "insults and threatening". If he means that i for months warned him that he was leaving me no alternative but to go public for the sake of others not being a victim in the community, if he means that i gave him chance after chance to avoid this and wants to call that 'threatening', well most people will see the pattern again in him.
8. Ask yourself, why did Daniel think he could go silent and defraud me of all this money?
simply because he thought i would be too embarrassed to admit he could take me for almost $50,000. Well, it is embarrassing. I was too trusting and
like others, fooled. But for the sake of the trust in the community, this had to happen.
and that is why some Daniel's German friends are complicit and accomplices. They are extremely compromised. They knew but have never gone public because they want him to continue to produce the Apolyt table. Great. Give him a loan, but the world wide community cannot accept this behavior in silence.
I sincerely hope that logic and truth will prevail, that we will not allow his group of friends to get to the bottom of how FAR HAS THIS FRAUD AND DISHONEST SPREAD. AND that Daniel will redeem his reputation and clean up the mess he has made. Then we will all go on with our life.
calling me bad things, saying that he would no longer reply in English "because it is not his 1st language and therefore he will write in German!" Etc. It is only after my posts AND so many joined in collaborating it , that I finally got this mail from him yesterday. It is this forum that has him on the verge of doing the right thing by me, but he needs to do the same by Alf and whoever else he has defrauded.
I will post this letter and then comment:
Well Mike,
I would have no problem to talk to you nor to answer your calls ... if
.... if it would be possible to really communicate.
Communication means to me exactly that - communication.
It does not mean to accept being flooded with insults and threatening.
Your last calls on our answering machine were exactly that to me.
When I called you last time 2 weeks ago - it was a flood of dirt and
threat thrown at me.
I had little change to reach you with any word nor argument.
Your mind is already set beyond reach - at least it seems to be so - and
you are gladly falling to any bad word about me.
Rest assured, that I am very well prepared to answer all arguments
against me should we meet in a legal case soon.
Why i am so confident?
Simply because I know that it is not the way it seems to you based on
the internet gossip and the fact that I did not act the way you expected
and demanded.
I told you before that you will get refunded for your down payment as
well as the 8x8 - I told you too, that right now it is simply not
possible, as all our money is in the current project.
Again: simply not possible now at this moment.
my comment:
1. He admits he owes me 17000 for the apolyt and 8,000 for the 8x8.
He neglects to mention the $5000 silver coils for the xover never used,
etc that add up to a total of nearly $50,000!! That has been the pattern. In different ways reducing what he owes me (in one mail it almost got to where I owed him money!), and it changes from mail to mail. It wore me out so i gave up after 4 months and started posting. No reasonable person can say
i have not been patient or not given him lots of chances.
2. He is admitting that for 4 months he has had a lot of my money, but now he admits he is using my money to develop his Apolyt. And want to keep it till development is done. He says that he cannot pay me back because the money is developing a product. Then take a business loan out! Go to your German friends and borrow the money. But you do not have a right to force me into a loan to you.
No, you cannot use my money interest free or without my consent
3. As usual, he confuses the issues. The 8x8 was on a trial and approval basis. He has offered the same in writing to others. I told him in 2 days did not want to keep the monoblocks and wanted a refund. That was in mid-november. You cannot refuse a refund that promised ....because you need it to develop the Apolyt. The same with the silver coils. that was for a cross-over. The same for the Syntax step up that was to be refunded when the Omnigon was purchased. Never refunded. The same with the WBT spades and bananas not used. Another 30,000 beyond the Apolyt 17,000 that he continually has refused to refund. This is dishonest. this is defrauding me out of money. This has been his pattern with others as well.
4. It turns out many of us have experienced this doubletalk. The issue is simple: You cannot keep other people's money for months, even years, to do your projects. But worse, until this thread Daniel had gone silent. He does that. the experience is that when he owes you money, contact broken.
Finally yesterday he communicated and began to admit he owes me money.
5. "Rest assured I am prepared to answer all areguments against me should we meet in a legal case soon". Well, answer them on this forum. Why are you silent? Because you have just admitted in this letter that I am telling the truth!
6 This is not going to be a civil case. This is a criminal case of using the internet and wires for fraud. Have no illusions. I will post later Daniel on audiogon actually advising another that using wires and internet is a criminal offense if a person has been defrauded.
So friends of Daniel, stick to the facts and stop being uncivil. Part of the facts are in this letter. I have other material that is just too much to post.
there is only one solution: Daniel needs to redeem his reputation by paying me and others ALL THE MONEY he owes. I am not going to argue that.
7. "insults and threatening". If he means that i for months warned him that he was leaving me no alternative but to go public for the sake of others not being a victim in the community, if he means that i gave him chance after chance to avoid this and wants to call that 'threatening', well most people will see the pattern again in him.
8. Ask yourself, why did Daniel think he could go silent and defraud me of all this money?
simply because he thought i would be too embarrassed to admit he could take me for almost $50,000. Well, it is embarrassing. I was too trusting and
like others, fooled. But for the sake of the trust in the community, this had to happen.
and that is why some Daniel's German friends are complicit and accomplices. They are extremely compromised. They knew but have never gone public because they want him to continue to produce the Apolyt table. Great. Give him a loan, but the world wide community cannot accept this behavior in silence.
I sincerely hope that logic and truth will prevail, that we will not allow his group of friends to get to the bottom of how FAR HAS THIS FRAUD AND DISHONEST SPREAD. AND that Daniel will redeem his reputation and clean up the mess he has made. Then we will all go on with our life.
Last edited:
I have just one question...
What does this "project" have to do with a refund he has agreed too?
What does this "project" have to do with a refund he has agreed too?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
It seems D is using the monies for the development and production of his turntable
Hi Steve,
You are correct, it appears Dertonarm, Deitrich Brakemeier and Axinia Schaefer, have used our funds to push his new turntable funding, or maybe the monies are funding their lifestyle on the lake outside of Munich.
We have suggested that Dertonarn quit this silliness and ask his father to loan the money to him to cover his obligations. He said that is not possible, but he would ask
his Bavarian audio friends/customers to loan him the money. From their postings this
morning, I would guess that his bailout request was not well-received.
I bought the Omnigon with a money-back gaurantee from Dertonarm. He has refused to honor his promise. I was told by a German Audiophile that this is Dertonarm's practice of pushing out further and further. There is this one guy that prepaid for the air-suspension for his Apoylt turntable two years ago. Dertonarm mentioned on Audiogon a couple of months ago that he prepaid a mfg. €50k to build 5 air-suspensions
for the TT and that one would be going shortly to this man in the queue to get his old Apolyt spinning.
Best,
ALF
I should not be posting this as I know neither the complainants nor the alleged perpetrator. I am even on a different continent. BUT:
It seems to me that a problem arises every time Mr. Brakemeier has to use a sub contractor-which is always. If, as a small operator with questionable business ethics that is in trouble with his clients, he is definitely also not his suppliers favourite person. I have some experience with operators like this: I order something from Mr. X, he must order from his supplier. He owes his supplier money so the supplier demands payment up front. There goes my money. But the supplier uses the money to level the previous debt so now my order will only be honoured once Mr. X gets yet another order whose fulfilling will then depend on yet another order.
Does this make Mr. X a fraud or does he run a Ponzi scheme? Not in my opinion. Is he guilty of unethical business practices? Yes. Anyone in the hobbies of “emotion” be it classic cars, watches, boats etc will have experienced this. If one sails these waters this is how it goes.
If I may look at the situation here: We have two complainants. Both have ordered stuff, prepaid and changed their minds. Then demanded the money back. Mr D cannot do that as he probably had to pay his supplier upfront. That silver coil is probably half wound. What on earth must anybody do with a custom value silver coil the customer does not want? The Apolyt sounds to me to be years from being a final product, the Omnigon ,I bet you, is not made by Brakemeier. Judging from the soldering it is made by someone’s 3 year old son and he must sleep in the afternoons so it will take time. I had to wait 4 years for a custom pre amp from a very reputable maker. These things take time. If A gets his product before be despite B having put his order in first, it is probably a case of who shouts the loudest, of who wouldn’t notice that component Y is used and has burned out twice before.
In the very high end of anything you can buy a “name” product from a nice dealer with fresh coffee and stuff. You can then not like it and demand your money back. Alternatively you can buy into someones vision, his dream. You take a leap of faith-you have to. If it comes off the feeling is unequalled. If it does not then well! Every query is taken as a personal affront, every discord as a major war.
The third complainant is a German called Reinhard. He is also the only person who came forward with an answer about Brakemeier on the German AAA forum. As far as I can tell he is not a client but a competitor of Brakemeier, You be the judge on that one. We also have Raul who has a history with Dertonarm on who can be the most arrogant and who also is developing (selling?) a competing phono stage.
The last Issue is about the book. Seems to me Brakemeier wanted to publish his book in English .The printer demanded money up front (ever dealt with a printer?), the proofs are bad so he is stuck with orders to fulfil, no money to move forward and a bear of a printer. I almost feel sorry for the guy!
Finally there is definitely a cultural issue here. We have Americans demanding an apology or admission of defeat from a German! A Bavarian! That has happened before-the outcome was not good.
Would I personally buy from this person? No- dealing with such a Superiority Complex is bound to lead to disaster. Should he be prosecuted? For what, late fulfilling of orders, refusal to honour cancellation of bespoke orders, bad workmanship? I do not know, it is not my money. All I know if one wants products like this is get it made locally.
It seems to me that a problem arises every time Mr. Brakemeier has to use a sub contractor-which is always. If, as a small operator with questionable business ethics that is in trouble with his clients, he is definitely also not his suppliers favourite person. I have some experience with operators like this: I order something from Mr. X, he must order from his supplier. He owes his supplier money so the supplier demands payment up front. There goes my money. But the supplier uses the money to level the previous debt so now my order will only be honoured once Mr. X gets yet another order whose fulfilling will then depend on yet another order.
Does this make Mr. X a fraud or does he run a Ponzi scheme? Not in my opinion. Is he guilty of unethical business practices? Yes. Anyone in the hobbies of “emotion” be it classic cars, watches, boats etc will have experienced this. If one sails these waters this is how it goes.
If I may look at the situation here: We have two complainants. Both have ordered stuff, prepaid and changed their minds. Then demanded the money back. Mr D cannot do that as he probably had to pay his supplier upfront. That silver coil is probably half wound. What on earth must anybody do with a custom value silver coil the customer does not want? The Apolyt sounds to me to be years from being a final product, the Omnigon ,I bet you, is not made by Brakemeier. Judging from the soldering it is made by someone’s 3 year old son and he must sleep in the afternoons so it will take time. I had to wait 4 years for a custom pre amp from a very reputable maker. These things take time. If A gets his product before be despite B having put his order in first, it is probably a case of who shouts the loudest, of who wouldn’t notice that component Y is used and has burned out twice before.
In the very high end of anything you can buy a “name” product from a nice dealer with fresh coffee and stuff. You can then not like it and demand your money back. Alternatively you can buy into someones vision, his dream. You take a leap of faith-you have to. If it comes off the feeling is unequalled. If it does not then well! Every query is taken as a personal affront, every discord as a major war.
The third complainant is a German called Reinhard. He is also the only person who came forward with an answer about Brakemeier on the German AAA forum. As far as I can tell he is not a client but a competitor of Brakemeier, You be the judge on that one. We also have Raul who has a history with Dertonarm on who can be the most arrogant and who also is developing (selling?) a competing phono stage.
The last Issue is about the book. Seems to me Brakemeier wanted to publish his book in English .The printer demanded money up front (ever dealt with a printer?), the proofs are bad so he is stuck with orders to fulfil, no money to move forward and a bear of a printer. I almost feel sorry for the guy!
Finally there is definitely a cultural issue here. We have Americans demanding an apology or admission of defeat from a German! A Bavarian! That has happened before-the outcome was not good.
Would I personally buy from this person? No- dealing with such a Superiority Complex is bound to lead to disaster. Should he be prosecuted? For what, late fulfilling of orders, refusal to honour cancellation of bespoke orders, bad workmanship? I do not know, it is not my money. All I know if one wants products like this is get it made locally.
I received an email notice about this thread and have read it thoroughly.
I am grateful that my two purchases from Dertonearm were successful and pleasant. First was the Uni Protractor and recently a Micro Seiki MAX 282. Daniel agreed the purchase price would include rewiring the MAX with Ikeda silver. He even provided images via email of the work while in progress.
After I received the arm, unexpectedly came a Micro Seiki template to use with the Uni that I had already purchased. No charge for this.
I realize none of this has anything to do with negative experiences others have had, my comments are not in defense of Daniel only a statement of recent transactions.
Now I have thrown my log into the fire I sincerely hope everyone is made whole in the end, especially the fellow that's out $50K. If that debt did not finish me off, my wife would certainly do the job.
I am grateful that my two purchases from Dertonearm were successful and pleasant. First was the Uni Protractor and recently a Micro Seiki MAX 282. Daniel agreed the purchase price would include rewiring the MAX with Ikeda silver. He even provided images via email of the work while in progress.
After I received the arm, unexpectedly came a Micro Seiki template to use with the Uni that I had already purchased. No charge for this.
I realize none of this has anything to do with negative experiences others have had, my comments are not in defense of Daniel only a statement of recent transactions.
Now I have thrown my log into the fire I sincerely hope everyone is made whole in the end, especially the fellow that's out $50K. If that debt did not finish me off, my wife would certainly do the job.
- Status
