Seeking Advice: Levinson 436 replacement

[Miles_trane]

Hi all - I am considering using the excuse of a malfunctioning Levinson 436 mono to upgrade my system. I have the Levinson in to a local repair shop to hopefully get it back to working order, but am considering changing the amps even if it is back in service soon. I worry about ongoing reliability issues with the Levinsons after reading about similar incidents elsewhere. My system consists of a Linn Selekt DSM < ARC Ref 5Se < Revel Studio2's - Transparent reference cabling. I really like this combination and have found that the Revel's really come to life with more power behind them. In the interim, I have an older Ayre V-5xe that is surprisingly pleasant, but lacks some of the grip on the lower end that I seek.

I value moving air, having speakers disappear, micro dynamics, and oomf. I am not a sophisticated audiophile, but I am a musician accustomed to performing on stage. I connect emotionally with music and enjoy my system best when I'm just in the zone and not overly analytical. 70% of what I listen to is classical and jazz, the balance a blend of indie, country, R&B, pop, you name it. Forgetting genres, I subscribe to the Ellington perspective on there only being two types of music: good and bad!

A quality local dealer has suggested I might want to listen to a Boulder 1160 and D'Agostino S250-MXV. They were refreshingly candid though and suggested that the Levinson's might be hard to best in this setup without spending significantly more.

I'd welcome any advice. I know I need to go out and listen, but unfortunately many other good local shops have closed recently so my options may be limited. Just looking for a starting point for thoughts / advice. Thank you!

 

[mtemur]

I recommend finding an amplifier that can consistently handle a 2-ohm load without difficulty, as your speakers are very demanding for most amps. Ideally, an amplifier capable of driving a 1-ohm load without issues would be even better, but the price increases dramatically. As far as I remember, older Gryphon amplifiers were quite good at driving Revel Ultima Salons, but that was around 20 years ago. Unfortunately, ML amplifiers are known for capacitor failures.

Both ML and Gryphon sound signatures are not my favorite BTW.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Parasound JC1+ High-Performance Monoblock Amplifier

Experience unparalleled power and precision with the Parasound JC1+ Monoblock Amplifier, delivering audiophile-grade sound and dynamic range for the most demanding speakers.

parasound.com

Can handle every load like nothing, sounds extremly good one my favorites.

 

[Miles_trane]

I recommend finding an amplifier that can consistently handle a 2-ohm load without difficulty, as your speakers are very demanding for most amps. Ideally, an amplifier capable of driving a 1-ohm load without issues would be even better, but the price increases dramatically. As far as I remember, older Gryphon amplifiers were quite good at driving Revel Ultima Salons, but that was around 20 years ago. Unfortunately, ML amplifiers are known for capacitor failures.

Both ML and Gryphon sound signatures are not my favorite BTW.

Thanks for the response! Aside from seeing manufacturers rate their amps at 2 ohms, how can I tell if an amp can consistently handle a 2-ohm load? I have read the Stereophile measurements, but as a non-engineer, I can't claim to fully understand everything. I recognize how terrible ignorant this makes me sound - but if I don't ask, I'll never learn!

 

[Miles_trane]

Parasound JC1+ High-Performance Monoblock Amplifier

Experience unparalleled power and precision with the Parasound JC1+ Monoblock Amplifier, delivering audiophile-grade sound and dynamic range for the most demanding speakers.

parasound.com

Can handle every load like nothing, sounds extremly good one my favorites.

Thanks for the suggestion! I recall reading a review that suggested they offer a lot of bang for the buck. I also recall reading that if an amp doubles as the impedance halves that it can offer reserves to power lower efficiency speakers. I see that the JC1+ doesn't quite do that, but at the same time, it seems to offer such high power that perhaps that doesn't matter?

 

[mtemur]

Thanks for the response! Aside from seeing manufacturers rate their amps at 2 ohms, how can I tell if an amp can consistently handle a 2-ohm load? I have read the Stereophile measurements, but as a non-engineer, I can't claim to fully understand everything. I recognize how terrible ignorant this makes me sound - but if I don't ask, I'll never learn!

You can never be completely sure if an amplifier is truly capable of driving a 2-ohm load consistently, but there are some indicators of its driving capability.

First, the power output should ideally double when moving from 8 to 4 ohms and from 4 to 2 ohms. For example, an amplifier rated at 300 watts into 8 ohms should provide 600 watts into 4 ohms and 1200 watts into 2 ohms.

Second, the frequency response at the rated output should always be specified between 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz, not just at 1 kHz. For instance, if an amplifier is rated at 1200 watts into 2 ohms, the specification should explicitly state “20–20,000 Hz” for the rated output. If the rating is only given at 1 kHz, the amplifier is not necessarily capable of providing specified output at specified load consistently. It can only reach the specified power output intermittently.

Third, the manual should provide a confident statement regarding power output capability. For example, my old Mark Levinson No. 333 manual included a remark along the lines of: “There is no speaker for which this amplifier’s power output is insufficient—but if you find one, you wouldn’t want to be in the same room with it.”

 

[microstrip]

(...) A quality local dealer has suggested I might want to listen to a Boulder 1160 and D'Agostino S250-MXV. They were refreshingly candid though and suggested that the Levinson's might be hard to best in this setup without spending significantly more. (...)

It is unfortunate that the ML436 have poor reliability - I got an used pair for a nice price about 15 years ago, they sounded great, but after a local technician who serviced them showed the building problems I decided to part with them. Curiously later Mark Levinson issued a service note solving some of theses problems - we are not aware but the same ML model sometimes had up to four revisions. As you say it sounded very good with an ARC Ref3 preamplifier. At that time I could not find a SS replacement for it at a reasonable cost.

I do not have direct experience with Burmester, but if currently I was looking for SS amplifier to use with an ARC I would like to try a Burmester - when I owned the Sonus Faber Aida's and the REF40 people whose opinion I consider highly told me about such matching.

 

[microstrip]

I recommend finding an amplifier that can consistently handle a 2-ohm load without difficulty, as your speakers are very demanding for most amps. Ideally, an amplifier capable of driving a 1-ohm load without issues would be even better, but the price increases dramatically. As far as I remember, older Gryphon amplifiers were quite good at driving Revel Ultima Salons, but that was around 20 years ago. Unfortunately, ML amplifiers are known for capacitor failures.

Both ML and Gryphon sound signatures are not my favorite BTW.

Apologies for interrupting, but does the Revel Studio 2 differ a lot from the Ultima Studio 2 ? The Ultima Studio 2 was an well behaved 4 ohm load that SS amplifiers could drive easily.

 

[mtemur]

Apologies for interrupting, but does the Revel Studio 2 differ a lot from the Ultima Studio 2 ? The Ultima Studio 2 was an well behaved 4 ohm load that SS amplifiers could drive easily.

Could be, I'm not sure.

 

[Miles_trane]

Apologies for interrupting, but does the Revel Studio 2 differ a lot from the Ultima Studio 2 ? The Ultima Studio 2 was a well behaved 4 ohm load that SS amplifiers could drive easily.

Great point. Per John Atkinson: I measured the Studio2's impedance with all of its controls set to Normal (fig.1). The magnitude ranges between 4 and 6 ohms for much of the audioband, with a minimum value of 3.6 ohms at 338Hz. There is a demanding combination of 5.5 ohms and –44° electrical phase angle at 23Hz, but other than organ and house music, it is rare for there to be much energy in this region, which will ameliorate any drive problems this load might cause an optimistically specified amplifier.

So it looks less difficult to drive than the big brother Salon 2s.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks for the suggestion! I recall reading a review that suggested they offer a lot of bang for the buck. I also recall reading that if an amp doubles as the impedance halves that it can offer reserves to power lower efficiency speakers. I see that the JC1+ doesn't quite do that, but at the same time, it seems to offer such high power that perhaps that doesn't matter?

you probably need two mains 20A power connections with 120 volts to see what the mono amps can do. power is there in excess. If you want ultimate stability, only something like this will help.

 

[GSOphile]

In reading various power amplifier measurements, I have noticed that quite a few amp manufacturers who rate their 4 ohm power spec at 2x their 8 ohms power spec, have actually underrated their 8 ohm power delivery in order to achieve the appearance of doubling power into 4 ohms.

 

[rangda]

I value moving air, having speakers disappear, micro dynamics, and oomf.

A quality local dealer has suggested I might want to listen to a Boulder 1160 and D'Agostino S250-MXV.

I think either of these will drive your speakers easily. As to the sound...

I auditioned these two amplifiers (along with the associated preamplifiers) back to back in a system with Alexia 1's and a Bartok Apex front end. To my ears the Dag traded some speed and detail for some extra warmth, which 1) I felt was a bit artificial and 2) I really missed that detail. Given your bias' I suspect you will prefer the Boulder as it will do better with micro dynamics IMO. Both will give you plenty of oomph. Having purchased the 1160 (and an 1110 to go with), it's grip on the speakers is iron clad and the music it produces is completely effortless. All that said the Dag is a great option if you want the warmth, and while the style is polarizing I love the look. Of course as others have mentioned there are other options, Gryphon is one I would also take a long, hard look at.

Note that the 1160 has been recently replaced with the 1162 (just announced), as a result there are a few 1160's on the used market which is normally pretty rare. This creates an opportunity to pick up a used or ex-demo unit if you want to trim the cost a bit.

Also, while I think you would be happy with the 1160/1162 I do not think you would be happy with the 1161. There is a very noticeable difference between the 1161 and the 1160.

 

[Miles_trane]

I think either of these will drive your speakers easily. As to the sound...

I auditioned these two amplifiers (along with the associated preamplifiers) back to back in a system with Alexia 1's and a Bartok Apex front end. To my ears the Dag traded some speed and detail for some extra warmth, which 1) I felt was a bit artificial and 2) I really missed that detail. Given your bias' I suspect you will prefer the Boulder as it will do better with micro dynamics IMO. Both will give you plenty of oomph. Having purchased the 1160 (and an 1110 to go with), it's grip on the speakers is iron clad and the music it produces is completely effortless. All that said the Dag is a great option if you want the warmth, and while the style is polarizing I love the look. Of course as others have mentioned there are other options, Gryphon is one I would also take a long, hard look at.

Note that the 1160 has been recently replaced with the 1162 (just announced), as a result there are a few 1160's on the used market which is normally pretty rare. This creates an opportunity to pick up a used or ex-demo unit if you want to trim the cost a bit.

Also, while I think you would be happy with the 1160/1162 I do not think you would be happy with the 1161. There is a very noticeable difference between the 1161 and the 1160.

Thanks so much for the suggestion and feedback. I suspect you are correct - I like detailed, fast, and neutral. I will also look into Gryphon - there is a local dealer. I will keep you all posted!

 

[Slingblade]

I'd include CH Precision in your audition list.

 

[thedudeabides]

All suggestions are great options and quite pricey btw, except for the Parasound. Look at Pass Labs. Many choices, very well built, very musical and reasonably priced in comparison to other "ultra" brands. Twitch (Dave) has Revel / Pass Labs and is quite happy with the combo I believe. Another option (same qualities as Pass) to consider is Luxman.