Simplicity, Complexity and Price

[tima]

Digital brotherhood. Al, Wil and Micro are the digital three musketeers

from Mars !

 

[andromedaaudio]

Digital musketeers
Horn /set / analogue musketeers.

Where does it end ? Lol

 

[Rensselaer]

Engineers, imho, are trained to solve problems, like trying to make digital sound as good as analogue. I will accept that many on this forum would argue that they have succeeded in this, but at what cost and complexity?

Example; One contributor to this forum spoke of his digital to analogue part of his system and it sounded very complex (can’t recall actual names but as I recall it consisted of two mono DACs, several separate power supplies, re-clocking devices, grounding systems, and requisite cables). The engineers who created such a system must have met with and overcame many problems along the way, necessitating such a complex array of equipment (and a necessarily shocking price), but does all that complexity and cost actually out perform a R2R into the same amplifier and speakers?

I can’t help thinking that much of the complex high end gear sold to audiophiles is actually presented as a testament of an engineers’ ability to solve the problems that others could not. Likewise I think there are many audiophiles that get off on owning and showing off these highly complex engineering marvels. If “what’s best” is perceived by them as this, then congratulations.

I personally believe in a minimalist perspective in regards to complexity, i.e. the fewest parts possible needed to get the best sound. I play vinyl as more of the music I like is available on LP than tape. I believe music from a MC cartridge through SUTs then a MM phono stage sounds better than most MC/MM phono sections of pre-amp’s so eschew the latter and play directly from phono stage into a stereo amp with volume pots. I am currently using Altec A7 horn speakers with external crossovers, but if I could afford the pnoe speakers in my last note, I would get them as they do not require crossovers but still provide great sound.

 

[Holmz]

Engineers, imho, are trained to solve problems, like trying to make digital sound as good as analogue. I will accept that many on this forum would argue that they have succeeded in this, but at what cost and complexity?

Yeah - but there are also the salespeople and marketing types…

Example; One contributor to this forum spoke of his digital to analogue part of his system and it sounded very complex (can’t recall actual names but as I recall it consisted of two mono DACs, several separate power supplies, re-clocking devices, grounding systems, and requisite cables). The engineers who created such a system must have met with and overcame many problems along the way, necessitating such a complex array of equipment (and a necessarily shocking price), but does all that complexity and cost actually out perform a R2R into the same amplifier and speakers?

I can’t help thinking that much of the complex high end gear sold to audiophiles is actually presented as a testament of an engineers’ ability to solve the problems that others could not. Likewise I think there are many audiophiles that get off on owning and showing off these highly complex engineering marvels. If “what’s best” is perceived by them as this, then congratulations.

I personally believe in a minimalist perspective in regards to complexity, i.e. the fewest parts possible needed to get the best sound. I play vinyl as more of the music I like is available on LP than tape. I believe music from a MC cartridge through SUTs then a MM phono stage sounds better than most MC/MM phono sections of pre-amp’s so eschew the latter and play directly from phono stage into a stereo amp with volume pots. I am currently using Altec A7 horn speakers with external crossovers, but if I could afford the pnoe speakers in my last note, I would get them as they do not require crossovers but still provide great sound.

It is as bad as looking at a new car.
It is all about the heated seats, entertainment systems, Bluetooth, etc.
And the performance is mostly about the HP.
Granted most cars have braking specs is at about 1G, and the cornering is close to that if it is not too top heavy, so the biggest difference are in acceleration.

But these things became way more complex than they need to be for getting from point A to point B.
And there are few that have performance, and are simple, and are enjoyable to drive.

 

[bonzo75]

What does this have to do with "digital"? Do you really think so much in terms of "tribes"

Your argument shows that behaviour. Irrespective of who was right or wrong, you always join in when you can in micro’s defence. Some might not be bothered. Just another argument on a forum. I did say Micro was correct. But you said he was, purely coz you are brothers in distortions

 

[Al M.]

Your argument shows that behaviour. Irrespective of who was right or wrong, you always join in when you can in micro’s defence.

Really? I have had strong disagreements with microstrip too, many of them if I recall correctly. Yet this was not about a disagreement, but about behavior of doubtful character, and one poster from whom I did not expect this taking sides on the issue -- the wrong side (that you decided to pile on as well doesn't surprise me).

I do care about fairness of behavior (while I will admit that I am not without flaws in that regard myself). That people have constant disagreements on issues is the nature of a forum, nothing wrong with that.

 

[PeterA]

I said the Ref 10 linestage was composed of two Ref2se. The Ref2se is a phono stage and so yes I made an error saying Ref 10 linestage when I meant to say Ref 10 phonostage.

All that was needed was a correction, something like "I think you mean phonostage instead of linestage."

But no, next comes a denial that there is a Ref2s along with with a schematic of the early ARC product and a smart remark about "coded references" whatever that is.



Lost in all of this was the point I made earlier that dedicated power supplies for each channel can be an improvement and I used the Ref 10 (phono or linestage both have them) as an example. Did he pick up on that, No, he just wanted to argue. Across the entire dialog he had no positive contribution to make, only to score points or whatever motive he operates under. I am done with him. Let Al M defend him, seems fitting.

I found the apples to oranges comment pretty rich. I brought up the L1 and LL1 Lamm preamps. I own both and I mentioned them in the context of simplicity versus complexity and diminishing returns. I then suggested reading Romy’s comments on the two preamps to suggest that someone else thinks that their performance differences are not as great as would be suggested by the prices. In response, Micro brings up Romy’s comments about various Lamm amplifiers to confuse the discussion and denigrate Romy. It seems to me that the new Micro enjoys arguing for the sake of it.

 

[PeterA]

Digital brotherhood. Al, Wil and Micro are the digital three musketeers

Careful. Someone might accuse you of being one of the twelve angry men who make phone videos of SET/horn systems.

 

[andromedaaudio]

That people have constant disagreements on issues is the nature of a forum, nothing wrong with that.

Its the basis on which an audioforum rests to ensure longevity.

People are atracted to drama .
Jerry Springer show comes to mind

 

[bonzo75]

Careful. Someone might accuse you of being one of the twelve angry men who make phone videos of SET/horn systems.

I have also posted videos of XVX and such. People can listen and judge which sounds realistic

 

[WBF Team]

While it's a shame, some members apparently feel as if the Terms of Service do not apply to them. Please allow us to remind you of a key aspect of TOS #6, highlighted in bold below.

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