Sometimes you have to eat Crow

mep

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I hardly know where to begin. I have always been an avowed tube lover and swore they had musical properties that somehow escaped transistors (think harmonic retrieval). So, over the years I pretty much turned my nose up at anything that had transistors lurking under the hood because I just *knew* they weren’t as good as tube gear.

I have told the saga about selling my Jadis Defy 7 MKII and not looking over my shoulder as it went bye-bye. I have told the saga about farting around with cheap SS gear from yesteryear (Yamaha C2a preamp and a pair of Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps) and how surprised I was at how good they sounded. Meanwhile back at the ranch, I sold my beloved Counterpoint SA-5.1 that had been basically rebuilt at great expense by its creator and I took a financial beating on it as I knew I would when I sent it back for the power supply rebuild. The Counterpoint SA-5.1 had to go because it didn’t sound as good (or as quiet) as the Yamaha C2a. And if I can buy something for $400 that kicks ass on something that I had over $5K invested in, guess which product is getting kicked to the curb even if my wallet is taking a beating along the way to the curb?

So let’s talk about preamps for a minute. Over the years, here are some of the preamps that I have OWNED (meaning that I paid money for them and they were part of my system vice borrowed them or heard them somewhere else): PS Audio 4H, Counterpoint SA-7.1, Counterpoint SA-5.1, Counterpoint SA-3000, Classe DR-6, ARC SP-14, BAT VK-3I, CAT SL1 Signature, McIntosh C2300. Atma-Sphere MP-3 MKII rev whatever (I have a special hatred for this preamp), Yamaha C2a, and the Krell KBL. I know I’m leaving some out, but this list is long enough.

I think the Yamaha C2a is a really good sounding preamp and for the money (assuming you can find one-they are pretty rare), they are crazy good. The phono stage alone will knock your socks off and is well worth the price of admission. I just sold an ARC PH-3SE that I had bought to hold me over while my Counterpoint SA-5.1 was back with its creator and the ARC PH-3SE cost 3x as much as the Yamaha C2a did when it was new. The phono stage in the Yamaha is better sounding than the PH-3SE, trust me. The PH-3SE is very quiet for a tube phono stage (it is a hybrid though with J-Fets), but it only has 54dB of gain and it simply sounds OK. The C2a phono stage sounds much the better and has more gain than the ARC. If you own the ARC PH-3SE, you have some snob appeal and some degree of audiophile street creds. If you own the Yamaha, even though you have the superior piece, you have to live in relative shame as your fellow know-it-all audiophile friends will feel pity for your lowly status in the audiophile world.

And here’s the part where those who love their measurements and think they can explain everything need to eat some crow. I defy anyone to explain how the Krell KBA preamp measurements are vastly superior to the Yamaha C2a measurements which are really beyond reproach. Back in the day when Yamaha saw themselves as a manufacturer of high-end two channel gear, the C2a represented pretty much their all out assault on the state of the art for preamps. My point to this is that there is nothing to be gleaned from the measurements that would explain how vastly different these two preamps sound from each other. You can study the measurements until you are blind, but you will have to use your ears to hear how different they sound and the measurements will never tell you why it is so.

So my Krell KBL showed up last evening and I didn’t really know what to expect. Based on all of the preamps I have owned over the years, I have pretty much given up on expecting anything (would that be negative expectation bias?). Out comes the C2a and in goes the Krell. The first hook-up was a disappointment because the left channel was dead. I switched the right and left ICs and confirmed the left main RCA output jack was deader than a doornail. I go to plan B and install a pair of XLR to RCA adapters in the XLR main output jacks. Bingo, I now have both channels playing which is great news. I hope there is just a bad connection on the left main output RCA jack that I can re-solder. I hook up my Def Tech bad boy sub to the right channel RCA main out jack. I turned on my music server, set it for random, and let everything cook for a couple of hours before I came back into my lair.

Cook is a good word to describe the Krell KBA as it runs hot. Both the preamp and power amp circuit are Class A designs. Legend has it that the power supply for the Krell KBL could power a 25 watt power amplifier and we will return to the notion of a preamp as power amp shortly. So I return to my music room, pick out Charles Mingus Tijuana Moods, give it a good cleaning on the VPI 16.5 RPM, and plop it on the platter of my Technics SP-10 MKII/SME 3012/Benz Glider SL combo which is playing through the Krell KPE Reference phono stage. Oh my…

I really don’t even know where to begin in order to describe the differences in sound between the Krell KBL and everything else that has come before it. The KBL is in a far different place than those that has come before it. Everything you play through this system just makes way more sense than it ever has. The suspension of disbelief that you are actually listening to live music has never been higher. Noise has never been lower by the way. This is one quiet preamp. Every record I played provided a new experience that took me far deeper into the music and away from mechanical/electrical artifacts that usually intrude in some way. To think that this preamp has already been thrown to the dustbin of high-end gear by the cognoscenti is sort of funny. Funny because the quality of this preamp has probably been exceeded (and that is sort of scary-I’m looking forward to the RMAF so I can hear the cost-no-object systems), but it’s hard to imagine how it can get much better. I can see why people who are Krell lovers and owned the KBL and “moved on” still have fond memories of the KBL and for some, regrets.

The KBL is full of dichotomies for me. It has less gain than other preamps that I have owned (even with the gain switch turned on which adds another 6dB I believe). That means you have to turn the volume control higher to achieve the same levels you are used to with other preamps. Even with less gain and the attendant higher settings of the volume control, the KBL is simply much quieter than other preamps that have graced my system over the years. The KBL seems like it is supercharged somehow in terms of the power it brings to the music. And power is a good way to describe what I’m hearing. I’m sure that outboard power supply is the engine behind that power. I kept thinking last night that the KBL is a preamp and power amp. It’s hard to wrap your head around until you hear it. If you did, you would understand (I think).

So meanwhile back at the ranch, the amps I’m currently using are the Phase Linear 400 Series 2 which has long ago been thrown to the dustbin of audiophile history and some on this forum have openly sneered at them even though I’m not sure if they ever owned this amp or the original version. The Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amp was good enough to make me sell my Jadis Defy 7 MKII which I realize is heresy. I haven’t missed that French nightmare once since I sold it. And as good as I thought the PL 400 Series 2 sounded, I realized last night that I had never gotten to the bottom of them (and I doubt anyone else has either). The KBL showed there was much more there to be heard through them. I defy anyone to find an amp that sounds this good, has this much power, is this quiet, and you can buy it on the street for around $400. Contrary to what the snoot suits will tell you, this amp will embarrass some much higher priced current amps on the market.

And having said all of that, I do have a Krell KSA-250 on its way to me as I type this. It is scheduled to be delivered this coming Wednesday-all 140 lbs of it. The KSA-250 was designed to go with the KBL I believe. My KPA Reference was also from around the same time period. So now we will see how much further this journey is going to go by inserting the KSA-250 into the system. If the KSA-250 sounds great, I’m still keeping one of the Phase Linear 400 Series 2 amps as a backup for those times when bad things happen. I have owned other backup amps over the years only to discover that I wouldn’t put them back in my system because I didn’t want to listen to them. This won’t be the case with the PL-it sounds damn good regardless of what the misinformed tell you.

I don‘t know what to expect on Wednesday, but I’m looking forward to it.
 
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RBFC

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Now you've done it! I had the KBL/KPA combo and it is incredible. The Krell amp will wake things up even further. There's many flavors to all this, but I've been a Krell "fanboy" for about 25 years. I think you'll be ecstatic.

Lee
 

naturephoto1

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Mark,

Good luck with the "new" Krell gear. I still have my old Krell KAV-250a/3 power amp which has been upgraded and I am using for the rear channel speakers in my 7.1 system. By the way, I think that you were having a mismatch issue with the Pass equipment and may find with the properly matched equipment that the Pass amps are not what you thought. As I have mentioned, I am really enjoying my First Watt M2 25 Watt Class A power amp.

Rich
 
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mep

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Rich-I think you are right about an impedance mismatch between the Pass Labs X-250 I owned even though I did call the Pass factory asked if I could use it with the Counterpoint SA-5.1 and they said it would be no problem. However, the X-250 is long gone and the KSA-250 is on its way. The X-250 only operates in Class A for few watts. The KSA-250 is pure Class A for lots of watts. Not that it matters, but I think the KSA-250 is much better looking than the X-250 with the overbuilt face plate and cyclops bias meter.

And I did leave out at least one other preamp that I have owned, and that would be the ARC LS-17.
 

mep

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naturephoto1

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Rich-I think you are right about an impedance mismatch between the Pass Labs X-250 I owned even though I did call the Pass factory asked if I could use it with the Counterpoint SA-5.1 and they said it would be no problem. However, the X-250 is long gone and the KSA-250 is on its way. The X-250 only operates in Class A for few watts. The KSA-250 is pure Class A for lots of watts. Not that it matters, but I think the KSA-250 is much better looking than the X-250 with the overbuilt face plate and cyclops bias meter.

And I did leave out at least one other preamp that I have owned, and that would be the ARC LS-17.

Mark,

I am using an ARC LS10 Pre amp which was the greatest of the ARC SS preamps. It has been upgraded; right now we are getting a little more noise than I would like, but running it through the upgraded Onkyo 5508 has quieted it to next to nothing. Something may have failed to cause the noise and it may be repaired at a later date, but no noise is a good thing. By running the ARC through the the Onkyo 5508 Pre/Pro allows me to use my subs for all 2 channel playback and also to use Audessey for the whole system including my 7.1 system. By the way, and I am not sure, it has been suggested that the ARC LS10 may have been designed by the same designer as your Krell KBL or one of the other Krell Preamps; it too has a huge power supply though it is all in the single box.

Rich
 

mep

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Steve-If the KSA-250 is as good of a power amp as the KBL is as a preamp, I think I will be very happy.

Mark
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Steve-If the KSA-250 is as good of a power amp as the KBL is as a preamp, I think I will be very happy.

Mark


I have owned literally every Krell amp, preamp, DAC, CDP and DVD player that Dan ever made. IMO they were all terrific, built like bricks and reliable to the end
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I think the best thing that can happen to any music lover is discovering the playback system that's a perfect fit to his objectives, budget and room, and brings the upgrade path to an end, freeing him to spend his time and money on music. You can eat a black bird over that if you like, but it's sure not necessary.

Tim
 

mep

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Tim-The upgrade path never really ends. And I was thinking of you and some others when I said that measurements won't explain the differences you will easilly hear with the KBL vice other preamps that sport a really good set of measurements. This isn't one of those situations where you have to sit, close your eyes, and strain (like some poor bastard sitting on the stool who hasn't taken a dump in a week) in order to think you might hear a difference.

And I do spend lots of time and money on music. Never enough mind you, but lots just the same.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim-The upgrade path never really ends. And I was thinking of you and some others when I said that measurements won't explain the differences you will easilly hear with the KBL vice other preamps that sport a really good set of measurements. This isn't one of those situations where you have to sit, close your eyes, and strain (like some poor bastard sitting on the stool who hasn't taken a dump in a week) in order to think you might hear a difference.

And I do spend lots of time and money on music. Never enough mind you, but lots just the same.

Well, there will (almost) always be an upgrade path to follow, but you choose when to find your bliss and get off of the path. And Mark, I've listened to everything I've ever bought and a whole lot more. In that regard, I'm just like every subjectivist on the planet; it has to sound good, regardless of the measurements. What do you hear in the Krell you don't hear in the Yamaha?

Tim
 

mep

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What do you hear in the Krell you don't hear in the Yamaha?

Tim
More of everything that is good and less of the electical/mechanical detritus that is swimming around in lesser units. Simply put, the KBL is passing on far more information than the Yamaha.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I hope I don't derail the thread with these observations:

First I commend Mark/mep for his honesty and candor. Few audiophiles would dare to admit to what he has. To me it is a realization that we, audiophiles, tend to follow some herds, blindly. For example most audiophiles, myself included maintain that SS from the 70's and early eighties were not worth much. The C2 (there was a C1 mark, I'm principle the top of the line then, the C2 was a minimalist design and for many sounded better) seems to have to Mark's ears been better than a expensively maintained Counterpoint 5.1 ... Not too many audiophiles would take a Phase Linear 400 seriously, yet, map went alone and put it in place of a Defy 7, an amp that I owned and loved. I would not have ever though to do that .. frankly.
We do, audiophile, despite claim to the contrary , follow a certain orthodoxy. We do listen with our mind and refuse staunchly to accept it. I am as guilty of this as any. I'll take a much different example. To continue in the same old argument of 30 years ago SS electronics were not worth much , currently the rage in audiophile circles are the R2R... I have heard several R2R in system ranging from modest to palatial ... in many of these cases the decks were Studer A8x with stock electronics, which means vintage 80's SS electronics .. believe me they were good, very good and IMO the best analog I have heard from these systems ... One if not the best preamps if not the best preamp I have heard is the Burmester 808 a 1980 design which by the way is still their top of the line , yes! It has been updated with "new" whatever but the basic design dates from 1980!!! So I come back to the observation/question: Where these designs as bad as we have been lead or we have come to believe? Of course some were bad as are some today designs but were these ALL bad and unlistenable as we, almost all seem to claim?

Now another more difficult thing to get my thought around.. The tubes vs SS debate. I was a tube person... then I heard the Symphonic Line amps and preamps circa 1989, then I heard the Krell Reference amps (the brutes KAS-2000 the big monster capable of driving 0.1 ohm with ease, then finally I heard Burmester electronics , the little 878 stereo amps with a preamp DAC which to this day sounds extremely good the 870.... I also heard the Mimesis 9 and was forced to pay attention to SS, to my delight ... I know they sound different from tubes, no doubt and I can understand that someone prefers tubes over SS ... Just a matter of preference ... I however have come to even question this preference slightly .. because some SS sound almost like tubes but to me better, Dartzeel comes to mind) .. especially if you are not aware of what's playing, IOW , if you have the knowledge removed ... I am not getting there in the DBT food fight. I believe one can form a sense of what something sounds like or wether you like thi particular reproduction or not, without having to resort to DBT. I am also certain that there are aspects of our perception of sound that we have not yet correlated to some specific measurements. There are some works that points in that direction, amongst them those of Earl Geddes ... No I am surmising that we may, at times, form patterns of preference that comes to cloud, the better term would be "filter" our perceptions. some prejudices.. Once we see or know what equipment we set ourselves to be biased against it and to magnify its inevitable flaws ...

There is much would like to share with he collective but this is about enough food for though IME ...

Mep I hope that I didn't hijack your thread if the mods or map think so I will move this post to a new thread ...
 
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mep

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Frantz-I think everything you said was in the spirit of my thread so I'm fine with it. Soldier on my friend.

Mark
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Frantz talking about 70s SS:

Where these designs as bad as we have been lead or we have come to believe?

Not even close. This is just more conventional wisdom left unchallenged by even a modicum of objectivity. I own a Harmon Kardon integrated amp, bought new circa 1972. I know what it does rather well, into a variety of loads, from big sealed boxes to horns to a couple of steps between those extremes. I also own a QSC power amp from the 80s. I have driven very inefficient and very efficient PA speakers with it, at volumes that elevated vocals above bass and guitar amps and a full drum kit. I've also used it as a studio monitor in much quieter situations with much more delicate speakers. I have a pretty good idea of how bad it isn't as well.

Where's that Stereophile "all amps sound alike" article when you need it? Wasn't that in the 80s? And the listeners in the panel couldn't consistently differentiate between a Hafler, a Futterman and a bog-standard Pioneer stereo receiver?

I don't want to argue that the Stereophile test was perfect, the methodology was spot on, that blind testing proves anything yadayadayada...we've been down those roads and I have my doubts as well. You don't need proof, or a really well buttoned-up methodology to know that if a bunch of folks, including audiophiles, can't consistently differentiate between a Futterman and a Pioneer receiver that this 70s/80s midfi stuff didn't suck. You just need a little common sense and the ability to shake off some convention lack of wisdom. Was there a difference? Maybe. Probably.

But it's a pretty good bet that the actual difference dwarfs next to the one we've created in our collective audiophile wisdom. No. SS from the 70s and 80s wasn't that bad. Some of it - even some we would call midfi - was damned good.

Tim
 

mep

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Well, I have certainly put myself out there for ridicule with the comments I have made vis-à-vis the PL and C2a, but I stand by them. Both of these are damn fine sounding, and saying it can’t be so doesn’t make it true. It’s not like I was comparing the PL to a Pioneer receiver. I compared it to a Jadis Defy 7 MKII that I owned and used to love until it kept eating tubes, cathode fuses, and cathode resistors. The Jadis just broke one too many times and lost its place in the starting line-up and could never work its way back off the bench. The only thing I regret about selling the Jadis is that I hurt my back carrying it upstairs to pack it. I have never once second-guessed my decision to sell the Jadis even if it cost me audiophile snob status.

As for SS and tubes, I do believe there has been some convergence on how they sound, but they will never sound entirely the same. Tube circuits will never be as noise free as SS is. Even if they start out pretty damn quiet with a new set of low-noise tubes, they won’t stay that way over the life of the tube set. It’s just the nature of the beast. In a perfect world, all tubes would die a natural death from cathode depletion. In the real world, tubes die for all types of reasons and even if they don’t die, they can make so much racket you have to remove them from service.

Output transformers are a necessary evil with tube amps as you have to convert the high voltage, low current, and high impedance to low voltage, relatively higher current, and lower impedance in order to make your speakers sing. There is no perfect output transformer and you will not get SS bass nor the ability to stay flat against impedance dips and peaks that speakers all have to one degree or another. Tube amps can sound magical in the vital midrange when all is working well, it’s just a challenge to keep them working well.

Tube amps will also keep working your wallet during the time you own them. Quality matched output tubes aren’t cheap, and they are never perfectly matched either. And even if they start out pretty close, they won’t stay that way as they age. So basically a tube amp will change its voice as the tubes age even if the changes happen so slowly you don’t recognize it until the next time you get out your wallet and spring for a new set. The bottom line is that tube amps have “a sound” that can be quite thrilling and addictive. I know because I have owned many tube amps over the years. I don’t think that most people would consider tube amps neutral devices though-the technology dictates that it can’t be so.

And the last thing I want to say about tubes vs. transistors is the signal-to-noise ratio dealio. Tube circuits no matter how well designed aren’t ever going to have the SNR of SS. And as the tubes age, the SNR most probably is heading south. There is something to be said for having very low noise gear that you can count on to stay low noise. Tube gear is a train wreck waiting to happen by comparison.

And so, I was almost afraid to go downstairs last night and listen to my system because I wondered if I was just star-struck the night before and it wouldn’t be repeated. I’m happy to report that I’m still in love and I’m looking forward to hearing the KSA-250. It’s a real brute and I hope it knocks the PL amps so far in the weeds I will need a search party to find them.
 

JackD201

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I really can't disagree with anything Frantz said. As an avid Golfer, I must admit I'm a driver junkie. I'll buy "what's hot" but come tournament season, I always end up with my "old faithful". It doesn't mean I'll stop looking though. Audio equipment are like golf clubs. If things don't go right blame goes to the clubs. When things go great, the player get's all the credit! ;) ;) ;)

In the end all that matters is the fit. Unfortunately we change so the fit changes as well.

My speaker upgrade was finished two hours ago. While I'm ecstatic about the improvements, I know I've got a lot more work cut out for me in balancing out the entire kaboodle.
 

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