Sonic Advantage of no Preamp / line-stage

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! this one.

Yes, in fact I have heard this somewhere or the other in an Avant Garde Trio system using Cary Audio monoblocks, if memory serves correct. But it was top notch with a top notch pirce tag, unfortunately at the time I was in-between jobs...

The other thing is that in Aus land- down unda- we don't too many offerings of such brands. Very rarely does something like this come up and goes for on the used market. Another major issue is after-sales service. There are hardly any good techs here and it is very hard to find a reliable one close by. You would have to travel interstate to get someone decent. I don't think this brand has any Aussie importer nor service centre.

I remember inquiring from the Kondo importer if I was to purchase the Overture amp, where would I get service? His answer was simple- send it off to Kondo HQ in Japan they'll take care of it since we don't have anyone who can service/trouble shoot Kondo in Aus. Oh great! and that's she wrote, hence I didn't get the Overture! but it was tempting and a truly remarkable integrated amp, just superb pure class A 32w of EL34 power. Just marvelous, and in fact the CAV45 offers glimpses on that quality, must be the magic of EL34's.

Thanks Ron

 

[Ron Resnick]

I totally understand. It is not comforting to buy something with no visible means of support if something breaks or goes up in smoke.

 

[Argonaut]

Hi RJ, Only just picked up your reply as I am traveling ATM with patchy Internet, shall pen and post a response ASAP.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Yes, ok but are these units affordable? and are they really necessary to get that pure quality from your recordings?
what price ranges are we talking here?

To me 10 grand for a pre-power is the limit and a well designed integrated will beat that in terms of sonic purity and musicality- on a particular type of system...
RJ

The most expensive is $1900.00, but these are parts that must be wired together. I looked to see if any company was actually building these into a product, but I could not find any. I only searched on Finemet, so there may actually be some out there that don't list the word Finemet. These are the best Transformers I have heard, and I've heard the good ones.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Empirical Audio]

Are those Teramotos used in any production passive switching box today?

What, today, is considered the very most transparent and non-adulterating attenuator switching box product?

I could not find any with my first searches. It would be a shame. Somebody should do this.

The experience you had was with a resistive attenuator. Much lower performance compared to a good transformer solution. There is still the issue of drive strength from the DAC or the input sensitivity of the amps however. If the DAC has high output impedance or the amps have low input sensitivity, then an active pre is probably better.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hi RJ, Only just picked up your reply as I am traveling ATM with patchy Internet, shall pen and post a response ASAP.

g'day Harly
no worries take your time... I'm at the physio atm attending to my back pain...

When you said "ATM" I thought you were at an atm machine withdrawing cash!
later I realized what atm stood for and so I adopted the abrev myself, how good is that mate!
talk later then, RJ

 

[KeithR]

I think a Music First transformer volume control will beat many active preamps if used correctly - and I've noticed several reviewers are going the TVC route which says a lot (Sam Tellig started it, but Jack Roberts, Matej, etc. have continued the journey - and Srajan has the Bespoke in for review). I've compared mine to several actives and it was superior. It does *not* sound like a thin, non-dynamic resistor-based "transparent" passive (like Ron talks about). I had an FT Audio back in 2000 that cost $500 and it did exactly that, but ultimately sold it a month later.

A TVC might work better in a balanced system however as its fully balanced architecture. We have been meaning to try one in my friends SET amp system for fun.

 

[Empirical Audio]

I think a Music First transformer volume control will beat many active preamps if used correctly - and I've noticed several reviewers are going the TVC route which says a lot (Sam Tellig started it, but Jack Roberts, Matej, etc. have continued the journey - and Srajan has the Bespoke in for review). I've compared mine to several actives and it was superior. It does *not* sound like a thin, non-dynamic resistor-based "transparent" passive (like Ron talks about). I had an FT Audio back in 2000 that cost $500 and it did exactly that, but ultimately sold it a month later.

A TVC might work better in a balanced system however as its fully balanced architecture. We have been meaning to try one in my friends SET amp system for fun.

I have a pure silver transformer Music First TVC. It was at first a bit sibilant due to the silver wire, but after cryo-treatment it is quite nice now. When I need to listen to an analog source, this is what I use, particulary SE to balanced. IMO Terramoto transformers are better. This is why I use them in my Final Drive. Most of the time I use the volume in my DAC direct to amps because there is no preamp at all this way.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Well the time has come, I just had to make a move. I got the Classic 60se and a wonderful PV15.
Before I went this route, I tried a few pre's in there. I tried the ET5, ET3se, Classic 2, Arc GSpre and previously the LS28. All of these pre's were extremely good, top quality in sonics but that annoying hiss...
Then tucked away in a corner, in pristine condition, a PV15 was waiting for take off. I know the sound of this beauty very well and have sold many during my dealership days... I hooked up all sources, fired up a signal because the Ethos take a few secs to get going on the panels and vola! no hiss! nothing, dead silent at all levels, hooray! And so the deal was infact down-grading towards a PV15 but the combination with the Classic 60se is just superb!

Overall, I still do miss that midrange magic of EL34's on the Cav45. The Classic60se having KT120's are remarkable indeed. The upper-mid bass is a vast improvement in terms of transparency, speed and weight. Even the lower bass seems to be tighter and fuller. The mids are open and natural, the extended airy highs are all there , similar to the Cav45. The most significant improvement is with the dynamics and drive of transient control, is a real treat to experience and it takes the Ethos to another level altogether.

In terms of power, plenty of headroom therefore I settled for the Classic60se mainly due to room dimensions, and in our new place this amount of amplification will be just right. I believe it won't overpower the room and the musicality is a very important factor for me. I will miss the Cav45 no doubt, and the wifey wasn't too pleased to know BUT after she actually listened, it was not just doof doof and louder but very smooth and musical all the way.

I plan to have my usual late night session today, this will be the real test for all things quiet. I must say I am very impressed with the added depth in soundstage. I am not sure whether the preamp is a contributing factor, the soundstage has expanded and is more open in many ways. Comparing it to the Cav45 was more intimate and something I was very pleased with. However, since this was a great deal for a trade-in plus a brand new Classic60se and a mint condition cj pre, I guess this was in the making.
So cheers to integrateds once again, and a definite big cheers to well designed pre-power combinations.
big woof! RJ

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations, RJ! Enjoy!

Woof, woof!

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Cheers Ron;

You were absolutely right in terms of greatly improved dynamics, however in terms of richness, vivid soundstage, imaging & depth is still all very much lifelike with the Cav45.

On direct comparison, it is the added spatial cues that are quite apparent with the separate pre-power in place. Also when the level is increased by a fair margin, it kicks into a totally different gear altogether, lifting the performance by a very high bar. The Ethos is a remarkable hybrid stat design. At this point in time, the only true justification in terms of upgrade would be the CLX. I don't think the extra spend on the Ren15A is justified by such a jump in price. I sincerely think the Summit and the rest of the previous Reserve line series is capable of outstanding presentation.

The midrange I must say though, was indeed suprior on the Cav45. That EL34 mid band is highly competitive at the same time addictive. I actually miss it! At one point I felt like keeping the Cav45 as well , just as a second amp but what's the point of that?

As far as the Cav45 was concerned, that was and will be one of my best experiences in audio. Just a simply marvelous all round amplifier. If I had the means, I would have actually kept it!

I know for sure that I do prefer the more fuller robust sound of what the kt120 delivers Having said that, I am in awe of the musicality level as well on both kinds of output tubes- EL34'S & KT120'S. I must try the Classic 120 sometime down the line when my main priorities are taken care of.

For now, I will sit back and enjoy the music, and most of all be appreciative if the fact that I was able to get this deal, inspite of having definite priorities on hand. Deals like this don't come across too often...

I also found the Classic60se to be superior in musicality compared to the Arc Ref75. Plus the Ref75 doesn't have SE inputs. Using adapter cables is not upto ref standard is it?
I found this pre-power match up to work remarkably well with the Ethos so far. Perhaps getting back to an Act2 might be a good idea after all...

Cheers and thanks guys, Harly, and others for the great advice, it certainly helped!
Big dog is in da house!
RJ

 

[KeithR]

I have a pure silver transformer Music First TVC. It was at first a bit sibilant due to the silver wire, but after cryo-treatment it is quite nice now. When I need to listen to an analog source, this is what I use, particulary SE to balanced. IMO Terramoto transformers are better. This is why I use them in my Final Drive. Most of the time I use the volume in my DAC direct to amps because there is no preamp at all this way.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Yes, and the quietness is beguiling - like seriously you don't realize how noisy most preamps are.