Speaker positioning, is it just a matter of preference?

[DaveyF]

I returned from a long trip yesterday and having visited a few a'philes in other countries, I came away with an interesting observation. I noticed that some a'philes and dealers are VERY much against moving their speakers much into the room, seemingly believing that the best positioning is close to the rear wall and thereby enjoying the bass boost that this positioning usually enjoys. On several occasions, I requested that the speakers be moved more into the room, resulting in ( at least in my opinion) a far superior stage presentation and much greater imaging ( both front to back and side to side)....however, this was in most instances decried as less than optimum to these same people and they wouldn't accept that my positioning was in any way superior to their original close to rear wall positioning. I suppose that everyone has a specific idea as to where speakers sound best, but I wonder if this is predetermined by one's expectation of how a speaker should sound in relation to the sound of the real thing?

I happened to notice this same issue at the recent THE SHOW in Newport in several speaker manufacturer's rooms. Upon inquiring why this close to rear wall set-up was being demonstrated, I was told that this is the best way to get the speaker to perform. Although it's hard to argue with the manufacturer of a certain speaker, to my ears, I simply do not find this to be the case in almost all instances. Clearly one's taste and the expectation of what real instruments sound like in a room are in question here.

 

[JackD201]

My experience is that there are locations in the room where speakers tend to sound best. Be they two way monitors or behemoths, somehow they end up in the same general spots.

I suppose that in itself would be a matter of preference since it is predicated on how I like things to sound.

 

[amirm]

There is actually an optimal position at 25% from the sidewalls where the two speakers then reduce two of the room modes. So pulling them in is good that way. You will get less total bass but much smoother.

 

[Keith_W]

I think it's a matter of where each individual speaker sounds best, to be honest! As you point out, some of them NEED the bass boost from being positioned close to the wall. But if you tried this position with a pair of Wilsons, it would sound ridiculous. It also has something to do with what the home markets are like - Europe, Japan, and much of Asia have much smaller listening rooms than what you might find in the USA, Canada, or Australia. I have been to listening rooms which are smaller than my bedroom.

 

[JackD201]

Different construction too.

 

[MylesBAstor]

My experience is that there are locations in the room where speakers tend to sound best. Be they two way monitors or behemoths, somehow they end up in the same general spots.

I suppose that in itself would be a matter of preference since it is predicated on how I like things to sound.

Ditto.

 

[RBFC]

Your friends may place a higher priority on the frequency response characteristics of near-wall speaker positioning, while you may value the depth and imaging provided by giving them more space. As long as you're happy with the sound you get at home, then it's good!

Lee

 

[MylesBAstor]

I returned from a long trip yesterday and having visited a few a'philes in other countries, I came away with an interesting observation. I noticed that some a'philes and dealers are VERY much against moving their speakers much into the room, seemingly believing that the best positioning is close to the rear wall and thereby enjoying the bass boost that this positioning usually enjoys. On several occasions, I requested that the speakers be moved more into the room, resulting in ( at least in my opinion) a far superior stage presentation and much greater imaging ( both front to back and side to side)....however, this was in most instances decried as less than optimum to these same people and they wouldn't accept that my positioning was in any way superior to their original close to rear wall positioning. I suppose that everyone has a specific idea as to where speakers sound best, but I wonder if this is predetermined by one's expectation of how a speaker should sound in relation to the sound of the real thing?

I happened to notice this same issue at the recent THE SHOW in Newport in several speaker manufacturer's rooms. Upon inquiring why this close to rear wall set-up was being demonstrated, I was told that this is the best way to get the speaker to perform. Although it's hard to argue with the manufacturer of a certain speaker, to my ears, I simply do not find this to be the case in almost all instances. Clearly one's taste and the expectation of what real instruments sound like in a room are in question here.

They need to learn there's a difference between quality and quantity of bass

 

[microstrip]

Speaker placement and room dimensions and have been addressed by many authors. I think that they can be summarized by saying that there a few positions or dimensions that should be avoided and a lot of experiences must be carried to optimize.

Also, you have to analyze first what are your priorities - single listener, home-theater for a few people, easy listening - all of them will have different requirements. IMHO, it is one of the reasons we have so many thumb rules, most of them conflicting.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I noticed that some a'philes and dealers are VERY much against moving their speakers much into the room, seemingly believing that the best positioning is close to the rear wall and thereby enjoying the bass boost that this positioning usually enjoys.

The best way to know where your speakers give the most accurate output is to measure the low frequency response at high resolution as you experiment. This requires room measuring software such as the freeware Room EQ Wizard program. Now, you might prefer the sound of more or less output at various bass frequencies, which is what happens as speakers are moved. But generally, having the flattest response is a worthy goal.

--Ethan

 

[DaveyF]

The best way to know where your speakers give the most accurate output is to measure the low frequency response at high resolution as you experiment. This requires room measuring software such as the freeware Room EQ Wizard program. Now, you might prefer the sound of more or less output at various bass frequencies, which is what happens as speakers are moved. But generally, having the flattest response is a worthy goal.

--Ethan

Yes Ethan, BUT that would seem to assume that most/all listener's are seeking accuracy. I'm not certain that this is the case. Additionally,some would argue that accuracy is a variable, determined by the particular listener's expectation of what the 'real' sounds like.

IMHO, I rarely hear a set-up that cannot be improved by moving the speaker more into the room and therefore further away from the rear wall. The side wall interaction seems to be slightly less imperative, BUT still a factor.
Getting back to the rooms at THE SHOW Newport, I felt that most all of the speakers on display were NOT correctly set up; most benefiting from moving the speaker's closer towards the seated listener and away from the back wall. Interestingly, in David Manley's room, demonstrating the Wilson Sasha's, David had moved the speakers about half way into the room and I felt that due to this placement, his room was one of the best sounding at the show. David told me that he was able to extend the depth and width of the presentation by this method and IMO he was absolutely right. Compare that to the room featuring the NOLA's, which Carl had placed close to the back wall, resulting in a far more closed in sound. I asked Carl why he chose this positioning and he was adamant that in this room this was the ideal positioning for his speakers. I also asked him IF he had experimented with the positioning, to which he answered that he had not and didn't need to since he know his speaker's ability Like I said, preferences

 

[flez007]

.... Like I said, preferences

...or lack of choices

 

[garylkoh]

There is actually an optimal position at 25% from the sidewalls where the two speakers then reduce two of the room modes. So pulling them in is good that way. You will get less total bass but much smoother.

Sorry to disagree with amirm, but if you have the speakers 25% from the sidewalls, then the reflection from the wall back to the speaker is equal to the distance between the two speakers. There will be a deep cancellation with frequency at the wavelength at the width of the room. In a typical sized room, this will result in a suck-out somewhere between 60Hz and 90Hz.

Triangulate to the listening position and the "usual" equilateral triangle set-up, and you have very much the same problem with bass frequency reflecting to the sidewalls.

 

[DaveyF]

...or lack of choices

Fernando, I think Carl had a choice, BUt choose NOT to entertain it. Some people seem to get locked into their belief's and don't want to experiment or chance that there may be alternatives and therefore risk proving them wrong, just saying The High end seems to be chocker block full of these types of manufacturer's these days, just IMHO.

 

[garylkoh]

Getting back to the rooms at THE SHOW Newport, I felt that most all of the speakers on display were NOT correctly set up; most benefiting from moving the speaker's closer towards the seated listener and away from the back wall. Interestingly, in David Manley's room, demonstrating the Wilson Sasha's, David had moved the speakers about half way into the room and I felt that due to this placement, his room was one of the best sounding at the show. David told me that he was able to extend the depth and width of the presentation by this method and IMO he was absolutely right. Compare that to the room featuring the NOLA's, which Carl had placed close to the back wall, resulting in a far more closed in sound. I asked Carl why he chose this positioning and he was adamant that in this room this was the ideal positioning for his speakers. I also asked him IF he had experimented with the positioning, to which he answered that he had not and didn't need to since he know his speaker's ability Like I said, preferences

I think the lesson here is to let the electronics guy set up the speakers and the speaker designer go for a drink at the bar

Seriously, Robb, the Burmester CEO set up the room at Newport with my speakers (I couldn't make it to the show) and I got more than the usual number of great comments from my friends and dealers! Sometimes, we "know" our speaker's ability too well and keep getting the same sound we are used to.

 

[microstrip]

The best way to know where your speakers give the most accurate output is to measure the low frequency response at high resolution as you experiment. This requires room measuring software such as the freeware Room EQ Wizard program. Now, you might prefer the sound of more or less output at various bass frequencies, which is what happens as speakers are moved. But generally, having the flattest response is a worthy goal.

--Ethan

The main question is that one will never have a flat measured FR. We will get many frequency responses, with different deviations at several frequencies, but there is always a subjective appreciation of which is the best. I have been using REW very frequently during the last few weeks, it is of great help for speaker positioning, but there is not an utility that analyses your curves and tells us which is the better.
The simple change of the averaging the filtering from 1/3 to 1/24 dB octave will change our perspective of the results.

 

[garylkoh]

The main question is that one will never have a flat measured FR. We will get many frequency responses, with different deviations at several frequencies, but there is always a subjective appreciation of which is the best. I have been using REW very frequently during the last few weeks, it is of great help for speaker positioning, but there is not an utility that analyses your curves and tells us which is the better.
The simple change of the averaging the filtering from 1/3 to 1/24 dB octave will change our perspective of the results.

In the Western musical scale, there are 7 keys in an octave. Adding the 5 black keys, you get 12. At 1/3 octave smoothing, you are losing more than 75% of the actual resolution needed. Speaker designers use that fact to "voice" the speakers and still achieve relatively flat 1/3 octave response.

 

[DaveyF]

Sometimes, we "know" our speaker's ability too well and keep getting the same sound we are used to.

Gary, I think that's a very astute observation. I suspect that many of us fall into this trap and don't realize it when we do.

 

[microstrip]

In the Western musical scale, there are 7 keys in an octave. Adding the 5 black keys, you get 12. At 1/3 octave smoothing, you are losing more than 75% of the actual resolution needed. Speaker designers use that fact to "voice" the speakers and still achieve relatively flat 1/3 octave response.

Yes, I even know of designer who uses a Piano Scale System Diagnostic to complement and overcome the 1/3 octave limitations!

 

[MylesBAstor]

Gary, I think that's a very astute observation. I suspect that many of us fall into this trap and don't realize it when we do.

Yeah it's like guys getting divorced and remarrying the same type of woman and getting divorced again