Yeah it's like guys getting divorced and remarrying the same type of woman and getting divorced again
Like "same inferno, different devil" kind of?
Speaker positioning, is it just a matter of preference?
- Thread starter DaveyF
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Like "same inferno, different devil" kind of?
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Like "same inferno, different devil" kind of?
Skip the marriage... just find someone you hate and buy them another house!!
Opinions vary, but personal attacks are in violation of our TOS. There's no need to slam another member for expressing their thoughts. The "ignore" button is there for posts you don't wish to read.
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Lee
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Lee
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Gary, could you please elaborate a little more on how this knowledge is utilized by designers and presumably by you as well.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
DaveyF, I tried composing a reply, but realize I'm giving away too many of my secrets. I want to be open with you guys and telling you what I do is fine. How I actually do it on the other hand...... Sorry.
Hi DaveyF,
I think speaker positioning is very much a matter of preference.
However, this should not be confused with optimal speaker positioning for best performance from the speakers. ;-}
Some folks just don't want their speakers "in the middle of the room". Those who claim "more bass" from positions close to room boundaries are confusing bass in the program on the recording and resonance of the enclosed space in which they listen. They are getting more *room*, not more bass as the increased low frequency levels have nothing to do with what is on the record; they are simply making the room "ring".
People seem to understand it more intuitively when video is involved. Place a video projector somewhere convenient and "out of the way" and the video won't be very good. You won't see the projector if it is in a closet - but you won't see much video either. ;-} Place the projector in a corner and aim it at the middle of the screen and the result will be a skewed image most folks wouldn't want to watch.
It seems far fewer understand that in audio, the speakers are the "projector" and the room is the "screen". Hence we get skewed images and compressed sound stages, if they're in focus enough to discern any images or a soundstage at all. We have folks thinking in terms of frequency response (are the colors equally bright?) but not in terms of temporal response (is the picture in focus?), etc. etc.
As we've all experienced in one place or another, issues of preference arise which may not necessarily reflect preference for the most neutral portrayal of the recording. Sometimes they involve preference for a certain look in the room decor. Often the room is furnished before the speakers arrive. Not that many have the good fortune to decide on speaker position *first*, then arrange everything else in the room around that.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
I think speaker positioning is very much a matter of preference.
However, this should not be confused with optimal speaker positioning for best performance from the speakers. ;-}
Some folks just don't want their speakers "in the middle of the room". Those who claim "more bass" from positions close to room boundaries are confusing bass in the program on the recording and resonance of the enclosed space in which they listen. They are getting more *room*, not more bass as the increased low frequency levels have nothing to do with what is on the record; they are simply making the room "ring".
People seem to understand it more intuitively when video is involved. Place a video projector somewhere convenient and "out of the way" and the video won't be very good. You won't see the projector if it is in a closet - but you won't see much video either. ;-} Place the projector in a corner and aim it at the middle of the screen and the result will be a skewed image most folks wouldn't want to watch.
It seems far fewer understand that in audio, the speakers are the "projector" and the room is the "screen". Hence we get skewed images and compressed sound stages, if they're in focus enough to discern any images or a soundstage at all. We have folks thinking in terms of frequency response (are the colors equally bright?) but not in terms of temporal response (is the picture in focus?), etc. etc.
As we've all experienced in one place or another, issues of preference arise which may not necessarily reflect preference for the most neutral portrayal of the recording. Sometimes they involve preference for a certain look in the room decor. Often the room is furnished before the speakers arrive. Not that many have the good fortune to decide on speaker position *first*, then arrange everything else in the room around that.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Great post!
To add however.......sometimes (as in my case) its an issue of not having a lot of choice. My room is really small at 10x11 so speaker placement options are extremely limited. This brings to mind a question! Would I be better served with a nice pair of good quality monitors as opposed to floorstanders? ( I am using Totem Sttafs)
Hello, John. That may qualify as a matter of preference. I've tried both in a room that size and some folks who observed both systems preferred the monitors while others preferred the floorstanders. Personally, I preferred the floorstanders but I have to be honest. The monitors offered the edge on imaging and less resonance.....while at the same time, less of the lower frequency output [weight, authority, impact]. I think your question might be an entirely separate discussion worthy of its own thread. There are many variables to consider.
Tom
Tom
Doesn't an awful lot of this have to do with the particular speaker design being employed? When I used dipoles, room positioning demanded a good distance from the rear wall. And, even when the speakers were 'properly' set up, aiming and respositioning a matter of an inch or so could dramatically change the image and focus of the speaker. My current horns don't interact with the rear and sidewalls like a dynamic speaker would, but the bass is a very difficult problem because what works for the integrated powered woofers (Avantgarde) is probably not optimal for the midrange/tweeter position.
Here's where in-room measurements can really make a difference, no? I assume there are readily available software programs that can be purchased, separate and apart from room correction systems?
I suppose I could do a crude measurement using a test record with different frequency sweeps and a handheld db meter.
I've basically used my ears, and a little judicious room treatment in the form of bass traps and a little diffusion. But the physical layout of my room is still the biggest constraint (and it's not a WAF thing, it is a dedicated room, but the dimensions are wacky and don't leave room for alot of different positions for the speakers). Looking forward to the 'next room.'
Here's where in-room measurements can really make a difference, no? I assume there are readily available software programs that can be purchased, separate and apart from room correction systems?
I suppose I could do a crude measurement using a test record with different frequency sweeps and a handheld db meter.
I've basically used my ears, and a little judicious room treatment in the form of bass traps and a little diffusion. But the physical layout of my room is still the biggest constraint (and it's not a WAF thing, it is a dedicated room, but the dimensions are wacky and don't leave room for alot of different positions for the speakers). Looking forward to the 'next room.'
Hi Tom! It's somewhat of a conundrum to find oneself in to be sure. A seperate thread may indeed be worthy.
Hi John,
In my view, a smaller room just means optimal setup will involve a smaller triangle between speakers and listening position - and a smaller soundstage as a result. While it might suggest avoiding very large speakers, it should not dictate the *type* of speaker.
For example, I've heard MMGs in small rooms, which I felt quite easily outperformed some considerably more expensive speakers in larger rooms.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
In my view, a smaller room just means optimal setup will involve a smaller triangle between speakers and listening position - and a smaller soundstage as a result. While it might suggest avoiding very large speakers, it should not dictate the *type* of speaker.
For example, I've heard MMGs in small rooms, which I felt quite easily outperformed some considerably more expensive speakers in larger rooms.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Thanks Barry!
After trying several placements I've found that the speakers placed in a perfect equilateral triangle works best (in my case, with my speakers). I know I am losing some soundstage or imaging (these are two descriptors that I constantly confuse).
Hi John,
I suggest an experiment: try an isosceles triangle with your ears ~10% greater distance from either speaker than the centers of the speakers are from each other.
If everything else in setup is taken care of, as you sit in the listening position and audition a well made recording (ideally one where the mic'ing is minimal), you can lean forward and backward and what you'll hear will be akin to adjusting the focus control of a camera to either side of focus. There will be one position where everything "snaps" into focus.
Perhaps this article will be of interest.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
I suggest an experiment: try an isosceles triangle with your ears ~10% greater distance from either speaker than the centers of the speakers are from each other.
If everything else in setup is taken care of, as you sit in the listening position and audition a well made recording (ideally one where the mic'ing is minimal), you can lean forward and backward and what you'll hear will be akin to adjusting the focus control of a camera to either side of focus. There will be one position where everything "snaps" into focus.
Perhaps this article will be of interest.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
If you want the best of both worlds (imaging and bass) use a separate sub(s) then place mains and subs where each gives the optimum performance!!!
I've often thought that John could improve his situation with the use of some monitors and well-placed subs.
Lee
Hi John, I too am in a similar situation to you in regards to my room size. I originally preferred a pair of large floor stander's and was living happily with them in the space. It was only when I had the opportunity of acquiring my current stand mounts that I experienced the benefits that a smaller speaker brings to the table in a room of this size. I have found that in my room, the basic equilateral triangle works best, which wasn't really possible with the floor standers simply due to their size. I added a sub and this took care of the low end duties, so as Lee has suggested, you might want to look into this configuration.
I am a BIG believer that in our audio rooms, it's "horses for courses".
I am a BIG believer that in our audio rooms, it's "horses for courses".
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
+1
With such a small room, your monitors (since you are happy with them) should be more than enough loudspeaker. I wouldn't use anything much larger. Add subs, and placement and integration will give you lots of years of fun
Don't forget height when you are moving subs around
Thanks you guys for some great suggestions and things to consider. I am happy with the bass I get from the Sttafs, but fully ecognize that a pair of monitors (they MUST excel in the midrange) and a the addition of a sub could/would give me a better overall expereince. I'm not in a position to consider this at the present time, but I really would like to experience this option. Food for thought, and thanks so much for responding!
In a 10x11 room you can have either quality monitors or large dipoles. Large dipoles couple very well to the air volume of the room, can create a very good soundstage full of detail, do not radiate significantly to the side walls and have little bass resonance problems, as their back wave reflects destructive in the back wall in opposite phase. I know of an editor of an hifi magazine who owned a pair of ESL63 in a 10x12 room and once saw a picture of a very small listening room with Soundlab A1s!
However most of them are not adequate to loud rock music.
Accuracy to me is for the loudspeaker to reproduce most closely what's in the electrical signal. Harmon et. al. have done a lot of tests, and they found that both experienced and inexperienced listeners preferred speakers that are more accurate. Now, I agree that some bass boosts or cuts can be pleasing, or not, depending on the particular source and individual taste. There's no sense arguing with someone who likes a smiley EQ curve. But you'll get closest to hearing the artists intent with a flat playback response.
--Ethan
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